Widowed. Divorced. Unmarried. Single mothers in India face an uphill task

2006 October 5
tags:
by Nita

While writing a school essay on his family, 11 year old Judhajit wrote about his father in the present tense, although his father had died almost two years earlier. His mother, Benani Dutta, has desperately tried to fill the void in the boy’s life, a void that she is afraid she may never be able to fill. The task she faces is formidable. Not only must she cope with the loss of a companion, but also financial problems brought in the wake of his death. Plus her children look to her for support and she must smile and be brave. ‘I cannot let them see my despair,’ she says. ‘I have to keep up the act.’

Cinderella Syndrome

Indian women often grow up with the Cinderella syndrome, believing that once they meet their Prince, they will live happily ever after. When that dream is shattered, they realise that they neither have the qualification, the work experience or even the mental make-up necessary to go out there into the world and fend for themselves.

Benani was luckier than most. She has a talent for designing clothes and was working even before her husband’s untimely death. After his death she expanded the business and today successfully runs a boutique. The money from the boutique does not cover all expenses however and she has to depend on relatives at times. ‘The family income has gone down by half. Plus I have to pay back my husband’s debts,’ she admits. Life was once a cosy ride, but today it’s work work work 17 hours a day, both inside and outside the home.

She considers herself lucky that she has an apartment of her own because many Indian women (even from affluent families) find themselves without a roof over their heads if they lose their husband. The in-laws, the brother and the father, all could deny her a right to a human being’s basic need – shelter.

Economic problems

‘The economic problem always turns out to be most serious one,’ says Rinki Bhattacharya. Daughter of the famous film director Bimal Roy, Rinki divorced her husband Basu Bhattacharya (also a film director) after 18 years of a turbulent marriage. ‘When I divorced my husband I had no place to stay, and I had to support myself and my three children. Though my husband sent us money, it was never sufficient.’ Rinki worked day and night, wrote for newspapers and sold her jewellery to make ends meet. She managed to make a name for herself, and also co-directed a film called Char Diwari, on battered wives. She runs an organisation in Bombay for victims of domestic violence. ‘Even today, what is uppermost on my mind is to earn enough to support myself,’ she says.

Being both mother and father

For a woman it is not only the daily financial struggle, but also the myriad little daily domestic tasks which drain her both physically and mentally. Single mothers do not get enough time with their children and this can cause problems. ‘My being away for long hours does have an effect on my son,’ admits Suhasini Kohli, mother of 12 year old Varun. Suhasini is one of those rare women who never married but opted to bring up a child by herself. A member of the executive committees of several development organisations, Suhasini’s work demands a lot of traveling and leaves her little time with her son. ‘I have now decided to cut down on the traveling, because my son needs me more than before,’ she says. She admits that there are discipline problems with Varun, but otherwise he is a very happy, and confident child. It is hard for kids like Varun, but now he has accepted that he doesn’t have a father. His craving for a father figure is met by Suhasini’s brother, who is a bachelor. ‘Varun identifies with my brother and is very close to him,’ says Suhasini.

Innumerable studies have shown that the father’s presence in the house is an important factor for healthy development of the child. While boys look up to a father as a role model, a girl’s future relationships with the opposite sex is largely shaped by her interactions with her father and the image she has of him. Moreover, husbands and wives generally balance out each other’s personalities and thus provide a secure environment for children.

A father’s mere physical presence is not enough. Due to cultural factors however, many Indian fathers consider it enough that they bring in the moolah. ‘Many Indian women, even when married, have to function as single mothers,’ feels Rinki. She points out that even she was married, she had to bring up her children single-handedly. ‘I gave my children the time they demanded because I believe that if one has children one owes them time. As a result, I was left with very little time for myself.’ Though her children were close to her, they were nevertheless attached to their father. The divorce took it’s toll on them and particularly affected her youngest, only six at the time. It was a case of contested custody and the child had to go on the stand and testify.

Single mothers not accepted

Today, divorce is becoming common in India but unfortunately society’s attitudes are not changing fast enough. Indian society looks harshly upon divorced women, invariably blaming them for the break-up. Widowed women are however, somehow ‘ennobled.’

Rinki felt the ostracism keenly. ‘Women who have the courage to walk out of a marriage when ill-treated should actually be admired, but instead they are looked upon as women who could not make their marriage work.’

Unmarried single women also face hostility. It is not a simple matter of turning a deaf ear to gossip, but a question of tackling practical problems like school admissions or getting the children married. Rita Bose is an unmarried mother who adopted Rahul four years ago, when he was just two months old. Says Rita, ‘During Rahul’s admission to a school I was questioned in detail about the adoption. I had to prove that I could support him. When I was waiting for the interview, people kept asking me, ‘Why hasn’t the father come?’ I have always had to face these kinds of questions.’ Family support is very important in these cases and Rita got it from her aunt, three sisters and close friends. ‘I always wanted to adopt a child, and my family was delighted,’ she says. With her job and spacious apartment in central Calcutta, Rita has no feeling of insecurity. She is happy. ‘After Rahul came into my life, everything changed. Everything revolves around him today, and I have become softer, more patient and more caring.’

Suhasini could not agree more. ‘A child makes your world fuller, he makes you more human, less selfish. Today even though I have to work so hard, it’s worth it.’

Divorce is becoming common in India now and in certain classes of society single women are going in for adoption. Sadly however, women who live alone are still considered oddities.



The story of a woman

When Supriya Dasgupta’s husband Dilip walked out on her four years ago, leaving her with two young children, it seemed to her that her whole world had been torn apart. Brought up as she was on the ideals of motherhood and the sanctity of marriage, she could not cope with the break-up initially. ‘I was dependent upon my husband in every way, financially and emotionally,’ she says. ‘I always had the feeling: He’s there, he is my infrastructure.’

After living a life of comfort for so long, Supriya was ill-prepared for the situation she found herself in. She did not even have a house to live in, and she was in Bangalore, far away from her home in Calcutta. When her husband was transferred to Bombay, it was clear that Supriya would have to stay on in Bangalore alone with the children.

She found that extremely hard. Her teacher’s salary was of little help. Eventually Dilip did buy Supriya an apartment, but he also persuaded her to sell all her family jewels as a contribution. Even today Supriya finds it difficult to describe the horror of that break-up. ‘It was as if two sensible sane people had gone berserk,’ she recalls. ‘It was very hard to cope. It is easy for the one who walks out. As far as he is concerned he has got rid of the problem.’

She herself found it difficult to handle the loneliness, and the despair that comes with the feeling of being rejected. ‘I was only human and could not handle the situation. Also, I found it difficult to handle my adolescent son who was finding it difficult to adjust to the new situation.’ After six months of living like this, she decided to return to Calcutta. She craved for the comfort of familiar surroundings and friendly faces. When she came back however, she found that her friends and family were unable to offer her the solace and the moral support she needed. She found that she no longer fitted into their lives. The turning point in her life came a year ago, when she decided that if anyone could help her, it was herself.

She found out that her inherent creativity (she is a writer and an artist) and her teaching work could help her carve out a new life for herself. ‘Teaching is my first love,’ says Supriya. ‘From the world of children, I get an emotional satisfaction. They show me how to be honest.’ Supriya has now decided to move back to Bangalore. She wants to start living in her own house and take up teaching again. She feels she had run away from Bangalore and is now ready to face it again. ‘I am woman who meets all my commitments,’ she says. ‘I want to recreate a home for my children who are not in a hostel. Whenever they want to come home, I want to be there for them.’

(This was published in The Telegraph in the nineties. It is an old article but reading it again aroused strong emotion in me. Not much has changed in Indian society. There are more single women than ever before, but society is still suspicious of them.)

Note: Indian Law says that divorced women can only recieve one-third of the combined income of the both marriage partners. A big disadvantage for working women who get divorced. After a divorce they do not just have to support themselves, but also kids and the money is not enough. They are not entitled to a car or a house. As often they work simply to supplement the family income (as they want to give attention to the family) this hits them in the gut if they get divorced. If they are simply housewives, they get more alimony from their husbands. And if they opt for high paying careers, they don’t need the alimony. Recently a man demanded alimony from his wife after the divorce as he was jobless…and guess what? Our ‘equitable’ Indian courts gave it to him!

Related Reading: Why men batter women
The devaluation of cooking
Women priests in Pune, India
How women are portrayed in the Indian media
The historical reasons for women fasting during Karva Chauth
The lies that beauty contests perpetuate
The causes of rape
India’s skewed sex-ratio
Why India is lagging behind when it comes to empowerment of women in politics inspite of statistics showing that it is ahead.

More: Why some singles choose to remain unmarried
Youngsters in India date with marraige in mind
Men’s attitudes can change for the better
It’s best to be open about sex

60 Responses leave one →
  1. 2006 October 6
    Vandy permalink

    Hi,
    This article is so true even today. Though in this 21st or is it 22nd Century things are slightly different and single women, or single moms are not rare…they r still few and far between. My closest friend is a divorcé and i still remember how she was surprised at my noncalent reaction to her telling me about it. She was surprised that I didnt find it strange cause everyone else who heard about her status suddenly shunned her. I married recently at 28… not because I wanted to…I was enjoying my life as it is…. but simply because I had to bow down to my very sick moms only wish. I dont regret it, but yes… i do miss my single life.

  2. 2006 October 6

    Hi Vandy. Congratulations on your recent marraige. I think in the long run it is far better to have a partner however wonderful single life seems. I am sure you will have a wonderful and happy married life. And thank you for commenting on my article.

  3. 2006 October 8

    Why fathers are not even given visitation rights in India (during separation)?

    Men’s Rights organisations across India now demands 33% reservation in Child Custody.

  4. 2006 October 8

    Sumanth, Thank you for commenting on the article.
    However, I am not aware of the legal side of the issue. All I have done is explore some of the problems that single women face while bringing up children on their own.
    I personally believe that both father and mother are equally important for a child.

  5. 2006 November 2
    Madhumita permalink

    most of these struck a chord. I think the biggest thing that hurts women after a split is the lack of financial cushion, comfort, and the confidence to make money. As has been rightly said, women fit themselves into the role of a supplementary income earner; no matter how educated; and after a split find it difficult to maintain the old standard of living.
    I dont have a solution to offer…what if the man isnt desperate for a divorce, he can just go without providing anything financially, and what options does the woman have then? Lodge a court case, and do endless rounds of hearings – expensive both time and money wise, in trying to get alimony. Seems like a nightmare. Alternatively, give up all claims, just concentrate on getting the divorce, and try rebuilding from scratch, again a nightmare
    Really a solution eludes.
    I have seen single (not being able to find the right person) and divorced men also go through a lot of emotional trauma- just that they are usually spared the financial distress, being a part of a gender that is brought up with the idea of being the breadwinner. And not being financially distressed is half the problem taken care of. Emotionally one can always rebuild, much easier, esp if money isnt an issue-but financial rebuilding is the toughest
    Having money and a social and professional standing enables emotional rebuilding, and makes it easier for men, and more difficult for women

  6. 2006 November 2

    The article here has touched many bits in my heart as I am a divorced single mother of a lovely four year old boy. However, I really do not think that the situation is so bleak for urbanized, independent minded single women who choose to walk out from an emotionally draining marraige and trust that life can still be good.

    I got into a couple of relationships post divorce as I, contrary to my independent nature, believed that life could not be complete without a man to share your life with, but as I went along I realized that somehow the fundamental reasons why these men liked me (including my ex-husband) were the very reasons which created conflict. I have also realized that I feel really complete with just having my son around and men are more of irritants.

    Somehow luckily in my marraige breadearning was never just my husband’s sole prerogative. Maybe he never allowed me to become dependent on his earnings which kept me in good stead post our separation. Yes I was also broke when I walked out on my husband with my one-year old because all my savings had been eroded in paying for my delivery and hosting his relatives in my house post delivery. (He had given me hope that we could rebuild our marraige with the baby in our life!!!) Yet I was very sure that I would cope and have to build my life and business from scratch, which I did manage to do.

    I think in a world where seperation and singlehood is now a way of life, all women should be prepared for such an event. I believe its equally draining for both men as well as women and not always can financial stability ensure faster emotional rebuilding.

    Relationships are special, but accidents do happen. What we need is some kind of emotional insurance against these accidents. This emotional insurance comes at a very high cost, much more than we women can imagine…

    Maybe we could make the men pay for it!!!!

    • 2009 July 30
      Parimala permalink

      Totally with you on this

    • 2009 October 8

      hello Vasudha,
      well when a person become a single parent, it does not mean only one get pain but both feel the same.

      I am not married but i have seen ppl who feels pain.

      I have seen it like as i did not get married but i am also a heart broken without marriage. Coz i loved her a lot as she was a widow with a kid.

      So, dont say if women feel pain not men…!

      thanks
      amit

  7. 2007 February 28
    Poornima permalink

    The article has touched my heart and I’m divorced single mother of a nine year son. My husband demanded alimony from me because I was earning more than him even though he initiated the divorce. Similarly, he refused to pay any kind of maintenance for our nine year old son.

    I decided not to get married again and bring up my son by myself. But I do face all the problems a single mother runs into and this disheartens me from time to time. My friends and their families keep away from me, sometimes I’m forced to spend less time with my son due to my work, and being single earning member in family with the income tax burden makes me run out of breath, knocks me off.

  8. 2007 March 7
    Shubh permalink

    Hi:

    I am going through a very tough phase in my marriage where my husband is in validatinng my very existence & is not ready to commit to me after being married for 6 yrs. I am also 1 mnth pregnant & dont know if i should bring this child into this world. I am scared for my child’s future & my own future. I may get divorced soon, even before this child is born. I am unable to trust my husband …what should i do & whom should i turn to…Can anyone let me know the nos for a marriage counselor in and around Thane

  9. 2007 March 7

    Shubh, hold on. Let me see if I can find out about a counselor. I have asked a few people.

  10. 2007 March 8

    Shubh, check out this link:
    http://www.healthymind.org/
    This is in Thane.
    These people have on their roll counselors as well.

  11. 2007 March 23

    I love this blog. We cover very similar articles on http://www.naaree.com and my blog at http://www.soulkadee.com I would love to have you contribute to our site.

  12. 2007 March 26
    Shubh permalink

    Hi Nita:

    Thanks for your help. I checked with these people but they do not do individual family counseling. Would you know anyone even in Powai or even Pune as thats where i am from.

    i need help!!

  13. 2007 March 26

    Shubh, I good friend of mine is a family counselor in Mumbai. She will be able to guide you. She has contacts in Pune. I will give your message to her.
    Its really sad that these people at the institute could not guide you. I hope the email id you gave in your comment is a valid one. And don’t worry Shubh, everything will be fine.

  14. 2007 March 28
    Ameeta Shah permalink

    Hi Nita
    Am a family therapist, use clinical hypnotherapy, regression therapy and NLP (all modalities of managing our emotions and relationships) and conduct workshops on self empowerment, communication and influence skills and the articles you write are of interest to me and matching to many of the clients I work with.
    In all issues whether as a single parent or being in a marriage, one of the things missed that can make a great difference to one’s workload in raising a child single handedly and to mamge work and home is communication skills. There is a lot in the subtlety of communications and its potential to solve problems. Children can get so much more co-operative once we use the parenting skills with them. And in today’s world of influences (media,peer pressure, net) the job of monitoring children trebles if we are not using skilled communications. With the shortage of time that a single parent has I feel having these communications tools can be a boon. Even getting co-operation of staff and family can be different with some of the communication tips.
    Also all our outer communications are a result of our inner state of mind and our beliefs. So if people who find themselves in physical stress situations actually take time off to do inner state management sessions – only a few sessions they can be amazed at how much better they can feel.
    I work with people on parenting communications, influence skills, marital communications and we can see a major shift in reduction of misbehaviour and even physical health issues, conflicts with doing a little of this work. Many turbulent marriages respond to this interventions and partners work more harmoniously with each other. The problem is our belief systems and our communication patterns come from our childhood days which may have been difficult and can be more reactive than centered. And centered is not simply about sounding calm – it is about being effective to our own goals and values and to the situaion we find ourselves in – Centered means communications aligned with getting us the co-operation or the stopping of disrespect we are looking for. What happens when we are stressed is our communications swing from being alternatively passive to aggressive both which do not give us the result we are looking for leading us to feel either like a doormat or guilty. Centered communications is something that can be learnt and make a great difference to life and relationships
    Am open to be contacted on emotional, stress, self management and communications issues – at ameeta_shah@hotmail.com
    Regards
    Ameeta

  15. 2007 May 1
    Anya permalink

    The article was very interesting and very informative however the issue of unmarried mothers and their hardships have only slightly been touched upon. You mentioned about the mother who had adopted and was unmarried… but what about the hardships of a mother who conceived herself?

  16. 2007 May 4
    Ela permalink

    Hi Nita,
    I will be very greateful if you can provide me contact of a Kolkata based marriage counselor. We need help in our marraige.

  17. 2007 May 4

    Ela, I am afraid I don’t know anyone in Kolkata today. The Yellow Pages should get you a good one, but ofcourse it is preferable that you go on a recomendation. You could perhaps ask your family doctor, or even a counselor in your child’s school to recommend someone.

  18. 2007 May 18
    Alex permalink

    Hi Nita,

    Though I agree with most of your comments in this article, one sad side of the story that you wished to ignore was the plight of men when it comes to breaking up of the family. No sane individual would like to see his world come apart. I am facing a real life divorce threatening situation in my family life. I have been pleading, requesting my wife to understand the need to live in unison, for the sake of the child. I have been at the receiving end from her parents relatives, even though I have tried my very best to save my marriage. The very myth that women are weak or victims of batter is not true univocally. My wife has me on my knees, she shatterd & devastated me & my family, went about filing cases under various acts in a systematic way, went to court & restrained me from travelling, put my profession & career in jeopardy & now reduced me to a pauper. I am helpless .. she has even denied me the right to see my child. So .. people women can be at it too ………………. somebody need to have sympathy for men as well ……. i havent been able to express my situation fully well .. but I really dont think single men also have that easy. Statistics have shown that men divorced – have a higher rate of commiting suicide than women in the same age group (33-40). I fear that I will soon become another number in this ……Anyways Nita do you have any contact emails of marriage counsellers in Bhopal & Pune , will be very obliged ….. maybe a string of hope exists ………….thanks for your blog … you have however not been very fair to men .

  19. 2007 May 24

    Alex, I am indeed sorry for your plight. Ofcourse I know men suffer too, and I in no way want to imply that women can’t be the guilty partners. But this is a general article and basically if one talks of numbers, its more women who suffer in our traditional society than men. But if your wife is harassing you like this, I feel you should move on and find yourself a kinder an dmore humane partner.
    And true, men do seem to find it harder to adjust if they have this kind of problem. I am not sure why, maybe women are mentally stronger.
    But hey, don’t give up!
    And if you want to make your marraige work, then its best you see a counsellor recommended by someone you know. I am afraid I don’t know anyone personally. Perhaps you can write to Ameeta who has written a comment above and ask her for a contact.

  20. 2007 December 13

    My favorite author Ranganayakamma deserted her first husband and started new life with her fan and admirer without legal marriage. She wrote a book titled “Janaki Vimukti”. That was a controversial book because she upholds Engels’ quote “Marriage is legalised prostitution in capitalist society”. In that novel, Janaki deserts her so called legal husband and starts new life with her admirer without legal marriage. I too don’t believe in institutionalised marriage system and I am ready to live with a divorcee if she comes forward. I don’t think that widows and divorcees need to live alone if there are few men who agree to accept widows and divorcees. Though there are social objections against non-married couples, they need not fear about it. Freedom is more important than living in the fetters of social taboos.

  21. 2007 December 13
    Vivek Khadpekar permalink

    Proletarian Revolutionary,

    // … and I am ready to live with a divorcee if she comes forward … //

    Why this one-way conditionality? What stops you from taking the initiative? Or are you thinking of it as a favour to be bestowed upon this imagined lucky woman?

  22. 2007 December 13

    @Proletarian Revolutionary:

    One thing is for sure – very few Indian women will think themselves lucky if they have to live in without marraige with anyone. In fact divorcees may be even more unlikely to think themselves lucky because as it is they are discriminated against in society.

  23. 2007 December 14

    “Janaki Vimukti” novel was first published as a serial in a telugu weekly journal. That novel caused fear in religious fundamentalists and also in idealistic atheists because that novel upholds Marxism and Chalam’s philosophy that are opposed by a class of people. Ranganayakamma was first influenced by Chalam who advocated that man and woman can live with mutual trust without marriage. He also advocated that widows and estranged wives can also live with their admirers. Chalam also followed non-scientific “Ramana Maharishi ideology”, but he didn’t change his scientific opinions on man and woman relationships etc. Ranganayakamma also studied Marxism by influence of her non-married husband. Chalam’s literature is considered as profane by many people because he uphold non-marital sexual relations, divorces and widow marriages etc. Though most of the works were not translated in to english, few translations can be found in http://ranganayakamma.org Some people noticed me reading Chalam’s literature. One person criticised me that I am reading profane (unholy) literature and another person criticised that such literature kills freedom of men. I know that most of the people cannot understand me if I live with a widow or divorcee without legal marriage but I cannot agree with or bound to oppressive social traditions. So, I am ready to live with a widow or divorcee.

  24. 2007 December 14

    @Proletarian Revolutionary:

    I guess our society is still not accepting of live-in relationships, but slowly I think this is changing, particularly in metros. I agree some of our social tradiions are very oppressive and it’s a good thing that you do not subscribe to their views.

  25. 2008 March 13

    Nita,

    This is another wonderful article ! Everytime I visit your blog,apart from the recent posts and the “hot” topics,I keep discovering articles like these (and the responses to them) that are TRULY enlightening ! It seems blogs can make us aware of the emotions in others that we would otherwise never be aware of.Yes,I like your emotional posts the best !

    I believe you have written many such wonderful articles for different newspapers.Is there a link to the complete collection of the articles that you have written for newspapers?

  26. 2008 March 13

    Thanks Raj. Well, I have two trunk loads of cuttings with me. :) but to put them on the net means loads of typing. As many of them are outdated I have therefore not done it. My health articles are all accessible on the times india sites as they were more recent, but as health is a hot topic I have uploaded most of them on this site. You will find quite a few of my articles are interviews with CEO’s etc and some of them are on the Corporate Dossier site on the ET.
    My earlier articles however are nto on the internet as at that time newspapers were not doing it. Thats why my cuttings are most precious possession. But they mostly won’t interest you as I have written on Law and reported on things which were current then but are not relevant now.
    Thanks for your interest.

  27. 2008 March 13

    Nita,

    I thank you because I am learning so much from this site !

    Two trunk loads of cuttings . . . I am sure you must have used up at least a dozen typewriters . . . not to mention thousands of notepads and pens :-) Now I understand the url of your blog . . . only thing missing is the word prolific between nita and writer :-)

    Never mind,I am not interested in reading what CEOs have to say and I have no interest in the law either,unless it is to get it changed for the better :-)

    I think you can scan the cuttings and digitise them to preserve them forever as paper does not last too long.It would also help in putting up what is relevant on this site.

    That’s an excellent idea Raj. Been thinking of it. Just been lazy! – Thanks. – Nita.

  28. 2008 April 14
    Pallavi permalink

    Hi Nita,

    Can you please explain the sentence in your blog?

    “Indian Law says that divorced women can only recieve one-third of the combined income of the both marriage partners.”

    Is that after a divorce, the wife will be able to keep only one-third of amount of money she is earning and give away the rest to her husband? If yes, why?

    Thanks in advance

  29. 2008 April 14

    Pallavi no, this doesn’t mean that. I am sorry for the confusion here. To explain let me take a hypothetical case.
    Mrs. A earns Rs 100/- p.m.
    Mr. A earns Rs 200/- p.m.
    They get divorced.
    Their combined income is Rs 300/- p.m
    After the divorce she is entitled as alimony not more than Rs 100/- a month, as that is a third of the total income.
    Hope that helps to clarify.

  30. 2008 July 10
    vinay shrivastava permalink

    Hello Nita
    I liked your writings on widows. I am planning to take a group of students to Pune and make a documentary on this topic. Please let me know if you have any suggestion about any association in Pune who may benefit from this project. This project is funded.

    thanks,

    vinay

  31. 2008 July 10
    sonal parikh permalink

    dear neeta,
    i like your aritcle about widow and single women.iam single women.my age is 46yrs.i haveone younger brother n one younger sister.both r merried.i don’t mind that.but what hurt me most is that i don’thave any opinion in my house.even ido not have any social status.my younger brother is dominating my parents.my parents r econmically sufficiant.they r not depend on my brother.my parents told me clearly that i am not supposed to interfear in my brother so called personal life.and he is allowed to make hell n get away with it.i wonder why this is happening?
    we r all educated,well read people from upper middle class.
    As far as widows of india concern i have learn lot of things while taking classes as a trainer of workshop.it is all about processof making entreprenneurs at micro level.this workshop was conducted specieally for widow women whose age is between 18 to 40yrs.it was remote village of gujrat called dehgam and mansa.it was most wonderful experiance of my life.i have learnt from them how to fight odds of life.i like to dicuss lot of things about this women and also like to send photograph of them.
    pl,tell me if you r intersted.
    with thanks,
    sonal parikh.

  32. 2008 July 10

    Vinay, thanks. Unfortunately I am not in touch with any women’s organisations. I wish you the best of luck in your project.

    Sonal, I am sorry to hear your story. I think its best that you try and become financially independent, if it is possible.
    And you are welcome to email me with the details of this workshop with photos. Unless I see it I cannot say anything about it.

  33. 2008 July 15
    nicegirl permalink

    Hello Nita,

    I am soon going to be a Single mother , as i will be getting divorced in the next few months. My whole world has turned upside down as i have to start right from the scratch. My main concern is the roof over my and my childs head. Life becomes even more difficult and complicated for a divorcee women with children. They are not only shunned by the society but even by their own relatives, brothers and sisters. I searched a lot for single moms group or divorcee womens club in mumbai, where we can share our problems thereby gaining strength and courage to face the world.However i could not find any such group. Do you know any such group in mumbai? I would really appreciate your help.

    You are a brave girl to have decided to strike out on your own and I wish you all the best. To my knowledge there is single mom’s group in the sense of a formal group or a divorcee club. There used to be one in Bangalore and I think it is still there. But even that was for the rich crowd. About a self-help group, now thats different, and I am sure there is something like that in Mumbai. I hope that someone who reads this comment will respond with information! However, I think there are ways to find out. Perhaps you can approach a women’s counseling centre and ask them. Best of luck. – Nita.

  34. 2008 July 16

    Dear neeta,
    thanks 4 reading my story.i can send u pictures of this workshop.i have also read mr.vinay post.i can surely help him if is ready to come to gujrat.hecan contact me on your website.if he is really intersted i can take him to the villages where i have conducted this workshop.there he can actully meet real widow who r from socio-economically backward.most of them r aunghta(thumb usear)chap.but still they r fighting spirite is amazing.
    with warm regards,
    sonal parikh.

  35. 2008 July 26

    Dear Nita,

    After I read your blog on the above topic, I felt I had found a person I could pour my heart out. I have also written you an email to your email ID.

    Let me tell u something about myself and what I am going through.

    Born an only child, lost my mom 10 days after I was born.
    Grew up an extremely lonely and insecure child, always trying to find a mother substitute and some love somewhere, in someone.
    Dad was around for me until I was a kid but withdrew after I became a teen. He never fulfilled my emotional needs or my desperate longing for love.
    My grandma brought me up and hers was a love-hate relationship with me. She abused me verbally saying I was the reason for my mom’s death yet was very posessive and loved me too.
    I had no family, no siblings to play with or share my feelings. None of my aunts wanted the responsibility of a motherless child looking to be loved.
    I grew up like a wild flower without any nurturing, care or security.
    When I grew up, instead of studying well and concentrating on my education, all I wanted was to get married, get away, find love and get my own family.

    Mine was an arrnaged marriage, one thing I made sure I told him was that I wanted a friend in my husband, a man who could understand me, my feelings, communicate with me, talk to me about anything and be there for me and it would be vice-versa.
    Well, he promised but he never could or did understand me or be a friend to me. He never fulfilled my emotional needs.
    But I had made my bed and since he was a nice man, decided to stick to the marriage, had 2 wonderful kids, married in 86, went to the US and lived there till 2004.

    In 2003, he lost his job, went into paranoia and depression and we lost everything we had there and I was forced to come to India with my 2 kids and he did not come back with me, nor took treatment. To this day, he is the same way. I got divorced in India in 2006.

    For the last 4 years from 2004-now, I have been a single parent, ( I am now 45, but a very young looking one) to the best of my ability fulfilled my kids emotional needs, been a strong mother and woman, put my past behind me and enjoyed my life, travelled a lot which is my passion. I have made sure that I am always there for my kids and emotionally supported them, I don’t want them to go through any of the voids I went through or am going through.

    Now my son is almost 18 and leaving for US in Aug.
    My daughter who is 13 will still be with me.
    I cannot even explain the pain of parting with my son. I have tried to analyse myself and I am sure all parents experience the pain of parting with their children but I seem to be feeling more than usual, it’s like I am sinking, it’s like I had rebuilt and recreated a family with just the three of us again after my marriage broke down, but now it’s almost like my family is getting shattered again. Now it will only be my daughter and me and I am floundering. My son had been not only a son to me but also my friend, mentor, guide, since he is very practical, responsible and mature for his age. Now I feel like a lost ship in the storm of life, not able to find anchor or direction and no welcoming port to take refuge.

    What makes it worse for me is my daughter and I are utterly alone, we have no relatives or cousins who care, they have all drifted away, I have no siblings with whom I can share my ups and downs, my dad who is pretty old now does not care nor can he give us moral support which is what I need very desperately. I don’t know where to turn or to whom to talk to or who might listen to me and help me out.

    These are couple of things I am trying to assuage our loneliness and if any of them works, that would be great.
    1. I am getting increasingly lonely day by day, although I have my daughter and I try to travel with her, do many activities, I miss adult companionship and a family. Both my daughter and I long for a family where we can go to and be a part of them, we have a lot of love and caring to give, all we want is someone to accept us and give us a family and let us be part of their festivals, family gatherings, going on picnics, movies, dinners together as a group and maybe they also have daughters who are around my daughters age and they can become friends too.
    Does anyone have a large enough heart to accept us as their family?

    2. I live in Bangalore and I wish to start or join a regular meet up support group for people who are divorced, widowed, separated, single parents, I am sure there must be some more out there who feel the same way I do, who are struck by loneliness, whose families have kept them at a distance, who also needs support from another woman sailing in the same boat.
    If there is another single mom, working woman who has a daughter around 10 and above, I can rent a room for her in my home and she can be with us as paying guests but they will be family, we will share ups and downs, do activities together, kids will play together.
    How do I find someone like this and where?

    3. I am also trying to find a permanent companion for marriage, understanding, communication and love and caring. How wonderful it will be to meet a soulmate. I don’t have much hope about it but I do want to be a little happy, I have a passion for travel, it would be wonderful to find a man who can understand, communicate and be a moral support and emotional sustenance for me and my daughter and we can travel together, get involved in activities and be there for each other.
    I did try some websites but none of them work for me.
    It’s become very hard for me to relate to a completely local Indian man unless he has travelled abroad extensively or is very, very smart and is modern in his thinking. I seem to be able to relate only to a foreigner or an Indian male who has lived abroad many years. It is a problem and I don’t know what to do about it.

    Sometimes I lose the will to live cos life has become so meaningless and it’s the worst thing when u know there is no one else in the world for u except the kids, and the empty days and nights are terrifying, everyone needs some love and caring and to be with other people and I need it too.

    I am lost and feel I am sinking. Please help.
    M

    • 2009 October 8

      Hello M,
      I am so sorry after seeing yr story but u dont worry u will get smetrhing good soon.

  36. 2008 July 29
    Eve Terran permalink

    I belong to an online discussion group for mothers who were or are single during their pregnancy. I am a single mother of an 11 year old, and have found the support from this group immeasurable. The list serve is through cafemom.com and the website sponsoring the group is singlepregnancy.com. I’m also trying to be as involved as I can in the movement to further mother’s rights in the workplace and overall economic rights for mothers and single mothers. I know in the U.S., those issues are finally getting some attention, although we are still dominated by the cave men mentality here as well.

  37. 2008 August 10
    nicegirl permalink

    Hello MK,

    How i wish you were in Mumbai so that we could meet or start a group for single mothers, something like that. I am a single mother with a 3 year old kid. At present i stay with my mother and guess what we are just 3 in our little family. Yes my brother does come to see us sometimes, but not regularly.

    Yes one does feel lonely and despondent at times but then we all have to make a choice either feel depressed or get on with what you have and make the most out of it. My personal philosophy is that ” No matter what, I also have a right to be HAPPY” So i try to enjoy even the small things in my life which earlier i never used to take notice.

    My other suggestion if you dont mind, would be to get involved in an NGO. So that you can spend quality time with those who really need it. I have done so myself and it helps.

    All the best

    • 2009 April 6

      Hi
      I have been in search of single mothers group to share my experiences and learn and understand some from others. If you happen to b in Mumbai ..i would like you to contact me on my mail id.

  38. 2008 August 17

    Thank you nicegirl,

    Yes, I am thankful for what I have left, I have also decided to be involved in an NGO either with small children or women who have suffered.

    I have tried to get on with life and live and enjoy each day, yes I do have a right to be happy, but I am still human, there are days when I am so insecure of being by ourselves and immensely lonely with no family or friends or companion and that’s when I life pulls me down.

    I wish there were others in Bangalore I could start a support group with but how and where to reach them is what I am trying to find out.

    Meantime if anyone knows about any groups in Bangalore or wants to write to me, please write to:

    adjobs2004@yahoo.com

    Thank you

  39. 2008 September 13
    Shrins permalink

    I Read MK & Nicegirl’s blog, really very touching, I really feel very sorry about the way they have expressed, i too have brought up with sisters,mother,aunt,granny, I really feel very pained about the MK’s words, I wish all the happiness and a good company to her.

  40. 2008 September 19
    nicegirl permalink

    This is a truly INSPIRING article which i came came across in the TIMES OF INDIA. We all think that we have so many problems to deal with, but then we are not alone….

    CHANDIGARH: A Mumbai woman, who walked out of her troubled marriage and now works for women’s empowerment, was selected Tuesday for the 2008 Neerja Bhanot award for showing tremendous courage, compassion and commitment in life.

    Chanda Asani, 41, was chosen for the award by the jury of the Neerja Bhanot Pan Am Trust.

    The award is given in the memory of air-hostess Neerja Bhanot, a 23-year old Senior Purser of Pan Am Airways from here, who gave up her life while saving scores of others during a Pan Am plane hijack at Karachi Airport Sep 5, 1986.

    For her act of bravery, Neerja became the youngest recipient of the Ashoka Chakra, India’s highest civilian award for bravery, in 1987.

    The award comprises a reward of Rs.150,000, a citation and a trophy.

    Asani was married off at the young age of 15 years but soon found that the man she was married to was having a series of love affairs with other women. Despite having two children, Asani’s husband refused to take care of them.

    Asani, who had done her higher secondary, was forced to take up odd jobs to sustain the family. Life was a living hell for her as her husband openly wooed other women.

    Chanda did not want to go back to her father as she had three unmarried sisters and was afraid that the social stigma of her broken marriage would reflect on them too.

    However, when she was only 23, she took a bold decision and left her husband’s house in Mumbai.

    She moved to her father-in-law’s house in Adipur, Kutch-Gujarat, with her two sons but she was not able to live in peace there.

    Her husband married another woman in Mumbai. As she and her sons were ridiculed for her husband’s activities in Adipur, she decided to move back to Mumbai.

    Determined to change her destiny and not cow down to fate, Asani went back to studying, passed her masters degree in English literature and did a programme on women development studies.

    But problems did not end for her. Her health failed her – she underwent a glaucoma operation and was bedridden with arthritis. But she faced the odds, even going to the United States to be a nanny for some time.

    But soon she returned to work among women in India.

    Since then, the SNDT Women’s University Rural Development Centre in Mumbai has been a part of her life.

    Her devotion is towards ‘Kalyani’, a rural women’s co-operative in Kulak village near Udwada in Gujarat, where she coordinated with workers at the grassroots level, arranged non-formal education and training programmes and explored employment opportunities under a sustainable livelihood programme.

    When told that she had won the Neerja Bhanot award, Asani had only one thing on her mind – Kalyani.

    “The roof of the (Kalyani) centre is in a bad shape and I was not able to get funds for the work. But now I will ask them to find out details of the repairs so that we can start work immediately,” she said.

    The Neerja Bhanot Award will be conferred on Asani Oct 5 at a ceremony to be held here, said Aneesh Bhanot, brother of Neerja Bhanot.

    • 2009 October 13
      Nrupa permalink

      I really don’t think I have advice to give to anyone. However, my experience is worth sharing. I got divorced very recently after 21 years of marriage. Have a 15 year old son. I had married to a guy I met in college. Together then we had gone to the US and lived there for a number of years. Studied and worked there as well. Both of us are highly educated. Thoughout my married life, my ex-husband kept on giving me a hard time – mental and physical abuse. I kept on thinking I love this guy so I have to put up with this (know it sounds wierd knowing my educational background and US experience!). Divorce never crossed my mind. During fights I may have mentioned it at times but never meant it..Anyhow, this type of relationship continued for 15 years. 15 year onwards, he started having affairs. Each time I will catch him, he will apologize and I would give in. He had two affairs. then he had the third one..this time, I kicked him out. After that, he never came back. Apparently, the first two time he came back to me only because those women did not want to marry him. This one did. I am economically very sound, so, only took money from him to pay for my son’s US education. I live independantly with my son. All our friends do not even talk to my ex – even though they were originally his friends. Even some of his family also only talks to me. Everyone thinks he has done wrong things and they are supporting me. Me and my son, we are part of everyone’s plan and we like it. We are living life king size!
      Every time I talk to single people, I feel most people are depressed. Even if they start looking for a companion, they are just trying to fill a hole. I am also looking but am very upbeat. I know that my life can only get better..as always! I admit that I have my lows, but, then I always think it is his loss. I am truly a loving, caring and intelligent person who is beautiful both inside and outside. I will find someone who will value me -finally I have taken charge of my life!

  41. 2008 November 2
    roshni permalink

    Hi Nicegirl,

    Did you find out about any groups for single mom’s in Mumbai? Please write here, if you have.

    I have a 3 year old son. Separated from my husband 2 months ago. Staying with my mom who is a widow. And looking for such a group too.

  42. 2008 November 9
    nicegirl permalink

    Hello Roshni,

    I am sorry to say this, but i was unable to find any such single mothers group in Mumbai. I think that there are such groups, but probably they are located at the city side, not in the western suburbs where i stay.

    I have heard or read somewhere that divorced single mothers from Dr.Anjali Chhabria’s clinic called mindtree, which is located at Juhu, Mumbai have formed such a group. However i dont come from a highly affluent background, and would find it difficult to mingle with the women from the high society.

    I got divorced last month and am looking forward to a better tomorrow. I totally believe in this phrase “THIS TOO SHALL PASS”.

    If you want to contact me personally, you could email me at nicegal.girl@gmail.com

    All the best!

  43. 2009 January 4
    renu permalink

    I am a single mother in Mumbai. Though am educated and work at a call centre at nights, I find it difficult to manage my 3 yr old. I live with my parents and they do support us but they teach the child negative things about her father which I dont find it healthy for the 3 yr old. I dont want my child to build to grow with hatred for anyone. Her father is a real nice person and brings her sweets/chocolates/gifts every week he visits her. The only reason we got separated was because my parents always used to interfere in our matters and they caused our separation. Also they do things with the child as they please. For example, they will keep watching TV till 1 -2 AM at night and will keep the child awake with them. I have told them several times to put the child to bed early but they yell back at me and I cant do anything. Is there an organization or group that can help me. I want to move out of my parents house as I believe they ruined my life and now they want to do the same to my poor child. Please write to me sharmarenuedr(at)gmail.com

    Renu, one is not sure which city you live in, but if you check the directory you will find women’s organisations in every city. It is also possible for you to do this on your own. Find a couple of rooms in a safe locality and just move out. However where will you leave your child? Does your office have a creche? Please think of all the options before you think of moving. Another option is to have frank talks with your parents. And if you love your husband, please do try and make up with him. – Nita.

  44. 2009 January 4
    vasudev permalink

    india is at least 50 yrs behind the west in everything. so far i thought we were behind in economical and scientific developments only. quite recently i realised with a shock that india was behind the west even in things cultural and spiritual.

    we have always tom-tomed our cultural superiority. we have interviewed every westerner tourist to reassure ourselves how great a country we were, culturally, spiritually and democratically…a place where multitudes of different faiths live as one, while being great in family ties, cultural values, kathaks and koochipudis, bharat natyams and sarees or chooridars, unified families with a real father and mother! ha! things that the drifting, cultureless, fatherless westerner did not have…wasn’t it? the indian is proud about his/her virtues and wants others to learn from him and so he exported spirituality and culture. only thing, like a poor chess player he forgot to keep a watch on his own court and concentrated entirely on the opposition and …lost his pawns, one by one.

    came the western culture, it, tv nudity, soap operas, bare chest salmans, call centres and we lost all cultural values, family ties etc.etc. our culture is so weak that just one generation could smash it to bits. came t shirts, pants, pizza huts and belly dancers and alongwith that came western styles like open smooching! (seen at bangalore mg road and mumbai airport…indians doing it!)…came boy friends / girl friends and we saw men and women living together in apartments w/o marriage. came greed for dowry and we saw brides being used as firewood.

    indian culture is behind the western culture…50 yrs ago west had experimented with all this. they had marriages and they brought out good children. but somehow children learned to distance themselves from parents quickly (maybe because of loose govt laws which tells the parents: hit your child and face jail!) indian children were with culture as long as they had no money. with money they got liberated from the cultural jail and went on a binge. that is where we are right now.

    one thing i have taught my children is this: after marriage the only important person in your life is your partner…not your parents. emotional blackmailing and rent for the womb must stop here!

  45. 2009 February 4
    marrygold permalink

    Hi M ,

    please check our website http://www.marrygold.co.in
    and you may write to us . We are based in Bangalore

    Nandini

  46. 2009 February 4
    pratibha permalink

    Hi,

    Looking for a support group in Bangalore. A friend is going thru a nasty divorce, which seems to be taking forever. She works full time and has a 4 year old daughter. She needs some kind of support group, so she can manage to do justice to raising the child, earning her bread & butter and live respectably.

  47. 2009 March 29
    ravi shankar permalink

    Hi,
    the posts were simply thought provoking. enough food for thought. It summarizes indian social fabrik despite increase in education levels. I must say that most of us are literate barely countable amongst us happen to be educated. coz my feeling is that just by going to a school or college and holding on to a job/profession doesnt make us educated . maybe we just know how to read n write n speak bla bla bla. in reality we are boorish brutes . we are not gutsy enough to owe up our shortcomings rather we are super dupers.
    any way i salute u for the spirit in u in trying to reach out by way of morale boosting. gr8 job. keep it going

  48. 2009 October 8

    I really very happy after seeing this blog. I came late in this blog but now a days i have seen men make more frauds, they just go for the lust and the single parent ( especially women) are the easy hunts. So, plz requesting you, if you find someone then plz get all the info. about that person and then go ahead.

    I even found few good friend who were widow, divorcee and few got married coz i introduded them luckily and now they are happy.

  49. 2009 October 8

    Nita,

    This article is biased and it is showing only one side of Widowed. Divorced. Unmarried.
    Single mothers in India but the same is true for a father also…….Widowed. Divorced.
    Unmarried Single fathers in India also face an uphill task.Their is no jadoo or anything
    which works for a man being male.

    “Cinderella Syndrome” This holds good for a male also.
    “Economic problems” if the wife is housewife than the husband has to give huge alimony which will create economic problem to a husband.
    “Being both mother and father” Its tough for a male also being mother and father of a kid.
    “Single mothers not accepted” single father’s are also not freely accepted.
    “The story of a woman” for all divorces/separations and deaths there will be equal stories
    for men also.

    “Indian Law says that divorced women can only receive one-third of the combined income of
    the both marriage partners. A big disadvantage for working women who get divorced.”
    This sentence is showing women in poor light saying for women its better to be housewife
    rather than working ..just for alimony..? this harms gender equality. Woman shouldn’t be
    Dependant on alimony if she is working.

    “After a divorce they do not just have to support themselves, but also kids and the money is
    not enough.”
    For the maintainence of the kids there is a maintainence act as per Indian law and the
    maintainence is the equal responsibility of a husband and wife…why shy away from gender
    equality ..?

    “They are not entitled to a car or a house. As often they work simply to supplement the
    family income (as they want to give attention to the family) this hits them in the gut if
    they get divorced.”
    The alimony granted if the woman is housewife is as per the standard of living of
    husband.again its in Indian law.regarding the woman’s salary if she is working for a time
    pass job and her income just supplements the family income than the clause of 1/3rd of
    combined salary will give her justice.regarding the ancestral property and the enjoyment of
    the ancestral house/conveyance the rights will always be with the in -laws.same holds good
    for womans ancestral property also..as now woman gets equal share from her parents.A wife can’t demand the status of the father-in-laws.

    “If they are simply housewives, they get more alimony from their husbands.”
    This is against the concept of gender equality.This wont hold good with progressive woman
    nor it does any good for the family ..both husband and wife should be equal partners..

    “And if they opt for high paying careers, they don’t need the alimony. Recently a man
    demanded alimony from his wife after the divorce as he was jobless…and guess what? Our
    ‘equitable’ Indian courts gave it to him!”
    Of course,men should be awarded the alimony if he can’t maintain himself after divorce due to unemployment or layoff..Its true in the west also.No big deal in this..money is something
    which is equal to both male and female.infact indian women should be ready to marry
    unemployed indian men, if men can be happy house-husbands.Whats wroung ?
    there is nothing wroung if a woman can earn big fat pay-cheaque and can give a life to a
    unemployed guy or after divorce she has to give alimony that too equal to her
    status..everyone needs to survive..

  50. 2009 October 29
    Ruchi permalink

    Your article really showed me the mirror.
    my husband left me when a daughter was born. i hadnt been discharged from the hospital when he left. its been a year now and i haven’t been able to speak to him. also what i have found out now is that all the jewellery which i had has been taken away from our joint locker and so has been the property in joint name. my husband has asked me to give in writing that am mentally unstable and only after that he will meet me and the baby. this is sheer ridiculous. the society we have really prefers me to do that but then i just couldnt do it. your article strenghens my resolve to take him to court. its never too late!!

    thanks a lot.

  51. 2009 November 7
    ruchi permalink

    pls let me know of any single parent support gps in bangalore.
    i’m a soon to be legally single mom of a 3 yr young child.

    • 2009 November 9
      Jyothi permalink

      Hello ruchi,

      i am also making an enquiry for the same. please do let me know if u are aware of any such support groups. I am pregnant and my husband has left me. where do u reside at bangalore .. do get in touch with me my mail id is kiranrish@gmail.com

      sad to know that there are many woman aroud with so much of problems :(

      i was thinking i am the only one who is suffering and not many

      pray to god that we single moms get courage to lead a happy life… but the scar always remains

  52. 2009 November 9
    Jyothi permalink

    hi,

    can someone please help me with marriage counsellors in bangalore. i am 8 weeks pregnant and my husband has left me and i am taking care of my expenses my self. My parents have spent a lot on me and now they are left with nothing to spend on me … hence i have to earn my living i can only get moral support from them.

    mine is a love marriage and my husband left me and he got my first baby aborted. at the same time i was staying in a joint family with my in laws but what i noticed is he would even die for his family members he works like a dog and sacrifices everything for his family and till date he has done nothing for me not even bothered to take me to hospital even if i am dying sick… i have done a lot for him and his family

    i really feel lonely now and i need counselling… can someone help me with free counselling in bangalore

    thanks

  53. 2009 November 12

    i am a single parent mother having 5 year old sweet boy.i got divorced 2 years back but staying with my father since 5.3years.my family brought me from my inlaws place in a very bad condition when i was 6 months pregnant.my son did not even see his father in his 5 year life span.but his father never turned up and inquired for his well being.but anyhow i m managing with the things,surely with many problems.i am a teacher and trying to provide every possible requirements to my son.my mother died 15 years back and father a heart patient.only one elder sister.above all cant forget his father and resettle somewhere else with so many insecurities.i am not prepared to re settle down coz i have decided to live only for my son and cant even share my love with anyone else except my son as it is he is lacking one strong relaton in his life.now adays i am finding chages in him even his teacher is also finding some changes.he is loosing confidenceand getting irritated ,not listening to me or teacher,ask about fathers to his classmates.im fearing that he do not get diverted as i am working very hard inspite of not being financially sound,lacking support just to bring him up like other kids,giving him good education,but how?i am 35 and good appearence.my son is my life i cant think of my life without him because somehow ui also miss love and care in my life since my moms death.iwant to provide my son a beautiful world with so many problems?reply me on my email address as i do not find answers anywhere or kindly lrt me know where to find answer.

  54. 2009 November 17
    Sakura permalink

    Hi, I have read some articles given above and I am an unmarried single mother. But my nationality is Japanese, so how we perceive this matter may be different since we Japanese have more single mothers in everywhere in my countries and nothing more unusual.

    What I have thought about this articles is that we, single mothers have to manage to live anyhow to survive life no matter what. Now I am lucky that I have family who support me and thanks to them I can work.
    However I am also concerned about my son’s education, the side efffect which comes from lack of attention and so on.

    Having lived in India, I found it very difficult to get support from someone since there are almost none organization or policies that are warm to single mothers.

    Still I don’t feel that Indian society is getting westernized. The tradition is surely there in this matter.

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