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Some reactions of Pakistani media to the terror attacks in Mumbai

November 28, 2008

It was interesting to note that even the best newspapers in Pakistan did not want to believe that Pakistan was in any way involved in the Mumbai terror attacks. I know that nothing is proved as yet but can you blame me if I think the terrorists arrived from the sea from Karachi? I mean, the authorities are saying it to the media, and I see no reason to disbelieve them. Sure, the terrorists must have had Indian help too, but now there seems to be mounting evidence that some people did come via the sea. They seem to have the confession of an arrested man, who is a Pakistani. So here are some excerpts from Pak newspapers, which don’t seem to want to believe that anyone from Pakistan is involved. An article in the Dawn said:

The scale of the terror attack was military-like in its scope, inviting comparisons with an Al Qaeda plot. But military training is not the preserve of Muslim extremists any longer, as the recent arrest of a lieutenant colonel of the Indian army has revealed. Before the Mumbai terror plot unfolded on Wednesday night, Maharashtra’s Anti Terrorist Squad was pursuing solid leads into the involvement of the colonel and several Hindu extremists in bombing incidents eslewhere. Two of the police officers killed in Wednesday’s shootout at the Taj Mahal hotel had been heading the probe into the anti-Muslim Malegaon blasts. The suspects were also being questioned for apparent involvement in the Samjhauta Express bombing, for which Pakistan was initially blamed. That probe may now remain shrouded in mystery.

Earlier on in the same article the writer had said that one of the reasons for the attack was that the terrorists wanted to drive a wedge between the two countries!

Were those that felt threatened by an India-Pakistan strategy on terrorism watching all this closely? Was the Mumbai massacre needed to drive a wedge between the two? Dr Manmohan Singh’s masked warning to Pakistan indicated he did not see the trap.

Another article in one of Pakistan’s reputed newspapers, The Daily Times, seemed to imply that it was an Indian terror outfit which was behind this. They go so far as to suggest that Indian terror outfits now have a direct linkage to Al Qaeda!! A complete falsehood.

Heavily armed terrorists calling themselves the Deccan Mujahideen, a group unknown thus far, stormed luxury hotels, a popular tourist attraction and a crowded train station in at least seven attacks in India’s financial capital, killing over 100 people by latest count including the Mumbai Anti-Terror Squad chief. Analysts have cautioned against jumping to any conclusion but say the group might have some linkage with Al Qaeda or its ideology — even though until now investigators have not found an Al Qaeda spoor in the many terrorist attacks in India since 2003. The grievance on the basis of which the Indian Muslim terrorists usually own up their acts has thus expanded to include a global agenda. The Deccan Mujahideen — whoever they are — while talking about atrocities in Kashmir have also thrown in references to places other than India where the Muslims are said to be suffering at the hands of America and Britain. The hidden reference is to Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And according to the Daily Times the reasons why Indian Muslims are now turning to terrorism is because of the Gujarat riots and that Pakistan is being unnecessarily dragged into it.

Everything went back to the Muslim carnage in Gujarat in 2002 in which 1,100 men, women and children were killed and over 150,000 ousted from homes. At the local level, every time an act of terrorism was committed in India, Pakistan was somehow named. Ongoing investigations into some terrorist attacks that were alternately blamed on Indian Muslims and Pakistan have shown that they were actually carried out by a Hindu terrorist network. But facts aside, this is how the collective psyche of fear works. One credible event is remembered and then myths are attached to it. The same sort of thing happens on the Pakistani side. Taken together, this trend forms the brick-wall against which all efforts at normalising Indo-Pak relations come to a halt.

And the most ridiculous article I found was from a newspaper which calls itself The Frontier Post, a newspaper which has “a mission against the oppressors and the corrupts.” This newspaper is supposed to represent the voice of the people of the North-West Frontier Province and is published from Peshawar & Queta. The newspaper apparently sells 5000 copies in Afghanistan as well. It claims to be the largest English daily from the NW Frontier Province and also from Baluchistan. The article is titled The Bombay holocaust. I have quoted large amounts from the article, the amusing parts. According to them, prominent industrialists and film stars are being hounded out of Mumbai, the Maoists have a strong presence in Maharashtra, Malegaon is in Pune, and that fanatical Indian nationals who carried out the the Malegoan blasts have links with the Indian military. I just feel sorry for all those people who read such rubbish.

That so many sites were taken on simultaneously indicates unmistakably that this was not just a planned, organised and coordinated assault but had active involvement of some local elements as well. Without such a local collusion, an assault like this one was hard to carry out on a sprawling city that is not infrequently a horrified witness to running gang wars of its notorious underground but is presently being convulsed violently by the Maharashtrian nationalists. Led by Raj Thackeray, estranged nephew of rabid Hindu nationalist Bal Thackeray whose own Shiv Sena goons have quite often kept Bombay rocked with blood-soaked anti-Muslim riots, these nationalists are keeping the city troubled with their vicious campaign now for months. Bombay, they contend, is for the Maharashtrians only; and they have been hounding out from the city with strong-arm methods the Indian migrants, mostly belonging to Bihar and Uttar Pradesh states, and including prominent industrialists and businessmen and film celebrities. The port city is very much in the eyes of the Maoists too, whose expanding insurgency, already having nearly half of India’s countryside in its wild sweep and now creeping up sharply to the urban centres …this Maoist insurgency, now [is] deeply entrenched in the Maharashtra state too. Just recently, the Indian security investigators have stumbled on a militant organisation of fanatical Hindu nationalists and ideologues based in the Maharashtra state, Abhinav Bharat, with links with the Indian military. The outfit was found involved in several bomb blasts in India, including the fatal Malegaon strike in Pune, a major city of Maharashtra state, and on the Samjhota train in which several Pakistani passengers were killed. These were earlier attributed, as is its routine, by the Indian officialdom to foreign sponsored terrorists, implicating Pakistan directly or indirectly. A serving army colonel has already been arrested while several retired military officers and Hindu ideologues belonging to this militant outfit are under investigation for these terrorist acts. It is unfortunate that Manmohan Singh has raised his finger at Pakistan for the Bombay holocaust, without even waiting for the findings of the investigation panel he himself has set up to probe this reprehensible terrorist assault. And that too when only the other day the two countries’ interior secretaries decided in their Islamabad meeting not to blame each other’s country for terrorist acts without substantive evidence. He should have waited for his panel’s report. But he did not, replicating his Congress party’s mainstream rival BJP, which his own party president Sonia Gandhi had recently berated in a party meeting for accusing Pakistan of every terrorist act in India impetuously, not on some concrete evidence’s basis. The regret is that Singh’s accusation will leave the real culprits go laughing all the way.

Related Reading: India bashing in Pakistan
Muslims turning away from terrorism but the world is against them
Pakistan’s democratic government may be weak but dictatorship is not the answer

87 Comments leave one →
  1. November 28, 2008 9:59 pm

    Nita, we have provided the fodder ourselves. There was evidence provided to Pakistan in the case of Samjhauta blast. All of a sudden after a few years our agencies say Abhinav Bharat is responsible for it. Earlier it was said that RDX was not used for the Samjhauta blast, recently a woman investigator from the railway police said there were traces of RDX found and colonel Purohit provided the RDX. Selective leaks and deliberate misinterpretation have harmed us. I am sure the Pakistanis know where the terrorists have come from, it is not the Indians alone, the whole world has witnessed Pakistani connections in terrorists attacks all over the world. Irfan Hussain is a very respected columnist of Pakistan. This is a link to one of his articles on ISI http://dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20081110.htm. After saying all this I still don’t believe that majority of Pakistanis favour terrorism. There are rogue elements in their society. They have many many more Togadias than us, that is the difference.

  2. November 28, 2008 10:09 pm

    well,yes internally help must have been there.And as pointed the officers who were killed were connected to the recent bomb blast investigation.for one thing the Pak minister made the comments a touch too early for me,before anything related to Pak was found,so i think this is something which was done by them there.Who knows,maybe there is a link between the opposition here and the terrorists…

    And where is Raj?

  3. November 28, 2008 10:36 pm

    Outrageous. The Pakistan media is licking drops off the Malegaon blasts. What a shame. Hope none of us are misguided by this.

    And where is Raj?

  4. November 28, 2008 11:19 pm

    It doesn’t seem to be journalism at all, does it? Such over complication and manipulation of the facts, anything to shift the blame. The problem is beyond politics and borders between countries, don’t you think? What regular person wants to live in a world with bomb blasts, no matter who started them? Why not just tell the truth? It’s very confusing to me.

  5. November 28, 2008 11:52 pm

    @Nita

    It is difficult for any of us to accept that our own country’s media may be prejudiced. It helps to know how others see us. Perspective is a great thing.

    Just as our media and politics feel compelled to cast Pakistanis as villains in everything – never mind the disaffected masses in our own backyard – can we fault the Pakistani press to salvage their own pride by printing inaccurate stuff about India and Indians?

    The Pakistani High Commissioner in the UK was live on BBC News saying things like:

    Saying it is Pakistan is a step too far; We have contained militancy in Pakistan; The TV clips show the terrorists whose clothes etc suggest they are not Taleban or Pakistani because after all India has several factions too…

    You can imagine with how much disbelief I heard all this!

    Politicians are experts in drinking their own Kool Aid, the media needs to provide checks and balances not share the drink. Alas, in times of crisis, truth is the first casualty. And at the moment, nobody knows what the truth is…

  6. November 29, 2008 12:00 am

    I just read a very scary article in the Wall Street Journal about how Indians are just not good at statecraft. Let me quote from the article,

    “the reflexive Indian response to most every act of terrorism is to apportion blame rather than to seek a solution that will prevent, or at least minimize, its recurrence.”

    Things have to change after this.

  7. stud.boy99@gmail.com permalink
    November 29, 2008 12:39 am

    I am sure these attacks were perpetrated by Pakistan… and Pak media will never admit it. But hope India government possesses really “credible proof” of involvement of Pakistani government and citizens to show to western media… and western media and governments believe this. Because, if india is able to show to world that Pakistan is involved thn this is a golden opportunity to solve all problems involving Pakistan i.e. POK, narcotics, and islamic terror in various states, dawood, fake currency etc…

  8. November 29, 2008 12:47 am

    When the media reports such things casually and without confirmation (even if they are only opinions), I really wonder what trust the other articles published by them would have, in both the nations. The media can’t run on advertisements alone! Or can it?

    Destination Infinity

  9. stud.boy99@gmail.com permalink
    November 29, 2008 12:53 am

    And by chance, if Indian government is not able to prove pakistan’s involvement in this… then this can turn into a huge foreign relations issue for india (with every country in the western world !!!!)… and has implications for congress party within india…

  10. November 29, 2008 2:19 am

    it’s a sad and tragedy. finger pointing and blaming one another will not solve anything. nor the height of media coverage that is absurdly giving out information at the moment. nothing seems justified, not even the count of fatalities, hostages etc. dark days lay upon us, for how long? it is a scary world outside when we don’t even know who to trust any more. not even the media.

  11. November 29, 2008 3:18 am

    @ Nita : May be Mauritius has invaded Bombay after being sick and tired of rude Indian tourists and scary Indian honeymoon couples. Yes this must have been it! What a bunch of bull! In any case do you really believe in the Indian “investigations” in to these or any other attacks. We have seen how the police here conduct a normal murder investigation not so long ago. Someone or the other will be blamed and no one will ever know who were the real culprits. I can hardly now blame the Pakistanis for printing all this nonsense. I mean if we can make up stories why can’t they? There is no ban on writing fiction is there?

  12. R.Sajan permalink
    November 29, 2008 3:46 am

    “I just feel sorry for all those people who read such rubbish”

    Feel sorry for the psuedo-Left and the pseudo-secularists of India whose words during the past month, have only been re-phrased by the Pak media.
    Feel sorry for ourselves.

  13. Abhay permalink
    November 29, 2008 5:45 am

    Problem is we Indians are divided and giving things to the media .. foreign and national to latch on and one such thing we have given them is term Hindu Terrorism.
    If a Hindu kills it is termed Hindu terrorism and no one sees the motive that what made her kill. In my eyes it was a hate crime and nothing else.
    If muslim kills no one blogs, no one criticize them no one understand that some muslims are killing people in places where hindus dont exist. They are real terrorist.
    In my eyes there is only one terrorism that is “Muslim Terrorism” and these people understand only one language …. they are mad dogs .. outlaws …they dont deserve court … all they deserve is a bullet.

  14. Abhay permalink
    November 29, 2008 5:48 am

    Why all of u are crying foul over paki media … isn’t it where we … who give all these terms to the world which pakistan is just latching on.
    We are reading what we were writing for past one month.

  15. November 29, 2008 9:19 am

    Nita, so thoughtful of you to have scanned the Pakistani newspaper for their response to the attack on Mumbai. It is important to know how they react. If they can say that our PM has wrongly concluded that Pak was involved, have they not also jumped to the conclusion that Pak wasnt? In any case, it is high time the training camps in Pak are smoked out by military action. Everyone knows that Pak has only one thriving industry – the terror training camps of the world on their soil. All other activities seem like amateurish ventures. Once the investigations amply point to Pak or Pak training camps it is only action that one looks forward to….
    btw I too wonder where Raj Thackrey is? An SMS goes further…wasnt the Mumbai attack saviours in NSG and Marcos “outsiders”?

  16. vinod permalink
    November 29, 2008 9:22 am

    In my eyes there is only one terrorism that is “Muslim Terrorism” and these people understand only one language …. they are mad dogs .. outlaws …they dont deserve court … all they deserve is a bullet.

    Abhay, be careful not to become the persons you hate. Hate can be dangerously consuming.

  17. November 29, 2008 10:00 am

    Nita,
    I don’t when Media and Politics going to be responsible enough to understand severity of issue.
    We know each country had to survive, but survival on terrorism is like
    “Sitting on time bomb and waiting it to explode.”
    When is this Grey headed (over 60) politicians realize, what is exactly needed and what is delivered.

  18. November 29, 2008 11:21 am

    Pakistanis are hopeless. No wonder they have no control over the ISI in their own country. If they are so unwilling to see the problem how are they going to find a solution? And the psoedu secs of India serve their cause perfectly.

  19. vinod permalink
    November 29, 2008 1:05 pm

    I stay with 2 Pakistanis and I have spent the past couple of hours talking to them about this. The denial of the Pakistani media can be understood better if we Indians were willing to hear them out. The issue seems to be the attitude of Indians to the finger pointing. They seem willing to accept responsibility to the extent that it truly is, but not the way India judges them. It is characterized by a holier-than-thou, we-are-the-pious-victim-you-are-the-evil-neighbour and a sinister but unsaid Pakistan-and Pakistanis-don’t-deserve-to-exist attitude.

    I have tried to summarize something that took me hours. I have tried to have one of them comment here, but he seems to have no hope from Indians that we would give a Pakistani the benefit of doubt of still being human and having some humanity remaining.

    Vinod, it is not the average Pakistani who is to blame. It is the extremists. But yes, I think their media is biased. So is ours I guess, but am just pointing out theirs. In this case I think their media is being very biased. – Nita.

  20. November 29, 2008 2:58 pm

    I think its high time that they stop making a fool out of themselves. Its not that people are going to believe whatever rubbish they write in their newspapers.
    Secondly, the media of any country will never write things like – Yes, our country was involved in military attacks. Imagine what would happen to the concerned writer and newspaper later on. They are being cautious so that they can save their skins.
    All they deserve from us is a bewildered laugh. Nothing more!

  21. November 29, 2008 3:02 pm

    hmmmm…

  22. Shailesh permalink
    November 29, 2008 3:04 pm

    If we see the past and present the problem we all are ignoring or made to ignore is that we Hindu and Muslims are victims of this so called white race. World was never been like this before. If something happens to them on the name of terrorism (or self made act 9/11) they know how to deal with it in disguise.
    Hindus are peaceful and everybody knows they will not pay back. They created divide when they left India and now who owns the oil after industrialization so now Muslims are bigger enemies. It is all well planned; they created Taliban and all other grave problems developing countries are having currently.
    And guess what they have all money, resource and technology and they are living now peacefully making rules, standards, agencies, sanctions etc. shamelessly without giving credit to Hindus.
    It was Hindu vedas, technology, science, art, architecture, religion which was there from eternity and even today Hindus are most underrated and poor people. Being targeted by muslims, white or any other race.
    Being bullied and only because we don’t fight back. We should take China as example they are surviving every problems living and growing and will be super power soon, they do Tibet crisis, seize oil wells and still growing. They are smart we should have such kind of leadership quality and there is nothing wrong in “Tit for Tat”. We need good leaders with plans that actually come alive by hook or crook. Only then we can survive. We all know to hard work we don’t know how to manage it for greater gains in future.

  23. November 29, 2008 4:22 pm

    I second Amit’s thought that no media will write that yes our country is involved in these attacks.

  24. Shailesh permalink
    November 29, 2008 4:32 pm

    I don’t understand why people here are thinking that India is involved in this attack….

  25. Shailesh permalink
    November 29, 2008 4:35 pm

    Few miscreants can do something like Malegaon blast but this kind of terror is done by some professional group and even in Malegaon blast nobody involved killed themselves but here all the terrorists were in suicide mission. This is simply new tactics they employed on a weaker country like India and this made me feel shame first time on my country and I will surrender my nationality if no action is taken against this attack. I will never call myself an Indian. period.

  26. vinod permalink
    November 29, 2008 4:44 pm

    Vinod, it is not the average Pakistani who is to blame. It is the extremists. But yes, I think their media is biased. So is ours I guess, but am just pointing out theirs. In this case I think their media is being very biased

    You remember the “Kargil War”, Nita? I deliberately put the quotes there. While the Indian media where touting it as a “war”, it was almost a non-issue in Pakistan. When I mention “Kargil War” to Pakistanis they end up laughing at the way I have characterized it. I am beginning to believe that the media in both the countries play a huge role, deliberately or otherwise, in sustaining the mistrust, enmity and stereotyping towards each other.

  27. November 29, 2008 5:18 pm

    Media has been immature and biased, to own benefits.
    But the is it all worth. When will media understand the responsibility they carry on their shoulder to lure masses, who is sit right in front of Idiot Box or read Paper.
    I still see people coming up on media and using it for political mileage, as elections just round the corner.
    Media tried doing some sting operation as a moral responsibility have ended up being in doing rounds of cases filled with huge politics behind it.

    I still don’t what people expect from media.
    When they do good they are held up in cases and legal matter.
    when they do bad they get blame of it.

    In such a situation, i bet they will be least bothered of truth, it matters is running the business, and running it in profits.

    Hoping is good, but believe me truth is always dumped in soils of time.

  28. November 29, 2008 6:37 pm

    and now the pakistan govt are not even sending the ISI cheif ..

  29. Phantom permalink
    November 30, 2008 11:35 am

    In all the smoke and mirrors that characterises the world of international relations, the only people left with their pants down are we, the junta, the suffering public. How can any of us honestly say that pak or india or usa or al queda or hamas or deccan mujhaiddeen or the chinese triads……is responsible for this, or any previous terrorist attack. I’d hardly call the indian intelligence, or what is visible from indian intel, the most transparent, credible, timely and accurate source of reality!!!!! Likewise, pakistan has a long developed history of breeding and endorsing islamic terror.

    Dispassionately, I would say that this event smacks of being pakistani ISI funded/mentored and motivated…..most likely using the help of the many disillusioned muslim youth in india who maintain allegiance to pakistan, despite being india. At the same time, i would not be surprised if BJP or some right wing indian politicians had a hand to play in this….after all, what better crime than a copycat one, and what better timing for this than before an ellections !!!!! And yet again, CIA involvement would not shock me either as it fits into the consiracy theory of the US wanting more control within India, and bringing India into its side in the “war against terror”.

    Call me a cynic if you will, but I’m just not ready to buy the most obvious story, as the reality is that we will just never know what really happened, why it happened, and who made it happen.

    Our media, and media round the world, will publish what the powers to be want to be published. The reality of the true perpetrators, their motivations, the bigger picture – all this is well hidden from the masses. Just do some research and you’ll see that the major media corporatons in the world are in turn owned and/or controlled by massive MNCs or govt authorities, all of whom have self serving agendas.

    As for pakistani media – well, one would hardly expect them to jump up and point the finger at their own govt/ISI – I doubt if they’d be alive the next day if they did that . Taking even that out of the equation, can we expect the pak media or even the pak public to openly ackowledge their ISI’s full on endorsement of terrorist activities/centres????

    We live in an age where we will never really know the true motivations and patterns behind an event. Everything is part of a carefully orchestrated master plan. Dont forget that it was the CIA that promoted, funded and propelled Osama Bin Laden to the stage that he is at now, likewise with Saddam.

    One thing is for sure – each day the world sinks further into a canyon, with the muslim world on one side and the non-muslim on the other. Each new terrorist attack leaves us indians, israelis, europeansm americans seething with rage and anger at the islamic fundamentalists, which in turn further antagonises the ismalic community at what they feel to be an unfair and judgemental labelling of their community as a whole.

  30. lifeofhues permalink
    November 30, 2008 4:40 pm

    Unfortunately Babri Masjid demolition followed by riots happened, Gujrat riots happened, Malegaon happened, Raj T’s ridiculous activities happened, not to mention Christian massacres and many others. When we provide the world press so much fodder, the Pakistani press of the all the world press would definitely use these for their advantage.

  31. November 30, 2008 9:07 pm

    im not understanding, pakistanis media hype on the issue’s like gujrat riots.in pakistan these types of accidents are common, if in india there is hindu muslim riots,in pakistan there is always shia-sunni riots.in my opinion living in india is more safer than pakistan.we are the nationals of largest democracy.if in india all hindus have communal feelings like some organizations then there is no chance of survival for muslims&if 15 crore muslims will become terrorists then there will be home war.in my opinion its worst period of indian history there is always terrorist attacks &some organizations(hindu&muslimboth)wants to divide us in the base of religion for there own benifits,these organizations are deadlier than outer countries terrorists because these org wants to divide us .unite we stands divide we fall,we being nationals of india should boycott all such type of org.if we are united then ther is no chance of internal terrorist attacks ,if local people are not supporting these element how they can manage these attacks,if we got independence from britishers ,why we will not coming out from this bad phase of indian history.

  32. Pradeep permalink
    November 30, 2008 10:37 pm

    @Vinod – You have a point here. The media of any country for that matter of fact – including US has a tendency to tweak the facts to their liking – Look at the way public opinion was amassed for the war on Iraq. I would be surprised if there is at least one Pakistani journalist who would not resort to this bias.

  33. December 1, 2008 1:05 am

    i’m very sorry Nita, for all what happened this days in your city.

  34. Vinod permalink
    December 1, 2008 8:10 am

    As for pakistani media – well, one would hardly expect them to jump up and point the finger at their own govt/ISI – I doubt if they’d be alive the next day if they did that

    Phantom, you would be incredibly surprised at the independence of the Pakistani media. Their media is perhaps the only semblance of democracy remaining in Pakistan. They are given to govt bashing and would not shy away from it if they wanted to.

  35. Joeshik permalink
    December 1, 2008 11:19 am

    What else we could expect Pakistan to do? They are not only behind the Mumbai attacks, but lately all of the international crime has roots attached to this country. And as far as India is concerned they were given a clear license by the western governments during the 70′s and 80′s. Since the evolution of Bangladesh they have been on an offensive against India and we some how on a defensive. Even today 70% of Pakistani population is viscerally against India.

  36. December 1, 2008 2:45 pm

    See this link

  37. December 1, 2008 2:59 pm

    Pakistani Citizens seems to be involved but not sure government is involved directly. I doubt thou since they hardly have control over anything atleast it seems to be that way.

    India should make measured response and not react with angry. I honestly believe both countries grow-out old angry sentiment and most of both countries-citizens have good-trust-relationship.

  38. Joeshik permalink
    December 1, 2008 3:18 pm

    This is reply to Bharath

    Very clumsy. KHISYANI Lomri(fox) i,e Pakistan Khamba noche. And I feel pity for Pakistanis. They live in difficult country which is facing extinction bcos of own policies but don’t have the vision, courage and POSSIBILITIES to see and accept the truth.

  39. Rehman Chacha permalink
    December 2, 2008 12:07 pm

    Well what a drama on Star News has produced about Rehman Chahca. Did u people saw that. And the reaction and comments Nirpuma Subramanium had at that time after seeing the clips in Hamid Mir program at GEO TV.
    We should have acknowledge that we have problems of extremism. Muslim community is facing dufficulties in India.
    Whether in a shape of Gujrat, Sumjhoota express, Maligaoon etc….
    If this thing cannot be resolved in near future we will see this kind of terrorism in coming days.
    We should pressurize our government to give Punjab and other muslim areas to Pakistan or give them independence so that we should have a relax sleep.

  40. An Indian, mubaikar permalink
    December 2, 2008 2:39 pm

    so finally after all this wat are we seeing here…finger pointing…I dont blame you people…All evidences are pointing towards pakistan and has always been pointing towards Pakistan…Pakistan is a very tentative nation…They have no control over anything…n above that they want kashmir…lol…joke….solve your own problems first…dear neighbours…Pakistans ISI is always shown as a terrorist organization in our movies…n ya pakistani people do watch all these movies….what are the other source of entertainment there ???…We should take strict action against pakistan we cant let this thing keep on happening again and again….Word of advice for pakistani people :- If you dont solve your internal problems…you are going to be its victim one day…So i dont understand why are you digging your own grave..I know an average pakistani wud never think of such things…i call those people to unite with us and fight against pakistani government to take strict action against all those terror training outfits and their stupid acts and also the bloddy ISI….Lets do it people…I know we might not be as lucky as those terrorists who are to go to heaven and consumate 70 vigrins…Another stupid belief of the F*******g terrorist…i can only do one thing…lol

  41. An Indian, mubaikar permalink
    December 2, 2008 2:43 pm

    Nita please complete the moderation fast….i am waiting to see my blog entry here

    I was out of the house and hence the delay. – Nita.

  42. kalakaar permalink
    December 2, 2008 6:27 pm

    These things are too complicated for the common man to see through. Consider the following:

    Is the common man, whether a Pakistani or an Indian, at all interested in terrorism?
    What does he really want? You know what he wants if you are one yourself.

    Secondly, who (or what) has access to weapons such as those used in Mumbai? Either terrorist outfits or governments.

    Now tell me who do you think is up against whom? Also think of the ultimate motives for such ghastly events to unfold. Who kills innocent citizens? For what purpose?

  43. Phantom permalink
    December 4, 2008 11:21 am

    At the risk of Pak bashing, I surprised myself with the self-acknowledgement of some rather biased and prejudiced throughts. I have lots of muslim friends and I really do respect that faith, if practised in its pure and moderate form, just as I do any other faith….but there has got to be something inherent about the faith of islam that rendres it to so susceptible to extremeism, xenophobia, exclusionistic tendencies, and generates such feelings of hatred towards other faiths or cultural systems.

    From a humanist and a practical perspective, as an Indian and as a secular thinking person, is it wrong that I am beginnign to harbour some serious misgivings about the whole concept of Pak????? How long as India suffered on the account of Pak motivitaed activities? As a nation, as a Hindu faith we have never been aggressive or focussed on conquer, rather the past few centuties have displayed a tendency to adjust and make do with the incumbent outsider who chooses to come in and slowly spread his control over every aspect of our administration, politics, economics, culture. After the mughals and the brits, it has the, over the past 60 years, lack of a coherent and united India (from a political, financial, cultural and social perspective) that has become the new coloniser in our nation, depriving the people of true freedom, economic prosperity and the simple right of any human being – to live peacefully.

    I dont know if the average Pakistani person is aggressive against India, or even harbours negative tendencies against India. However I know one thing – an idle mind is a devils workshop. When there is nothing else to occupy one’s energies, one will tend to get mischivious. Pak govt has long capitalised on the lack of political, economic, social and religious stability within the country to stoke the pre-existant fires of anti-India sentients within the pak junta. It really is quite convenient….it allows the govt to mask their otherwise abyssmal record of political and economic behaviour, by diverting the energies of certain segments of the public towards the anti-India cause.

    But am I justified in this anti-Pak rhetoric, when perhaps I should look closer to home for the source of this virus that has now robbed the nation of true safety and that warm blanket of assurance that we are being given a fair deal, economiclly, politically!!!!!

  44. December 4, 2008 1:06 pm

    Prerna, true Indian agencies have made mistakes in the past, and while I do not believe the people there favour terrorism, I think they have anti-India feelings.

    Vishesh, I highly doubt that here is a link between the opposition here and the terrorists.

    Trailblazer, people there in Pakistan will surely be misguided. Its sad.

    Christine, there is an age-old enmity between India and Pakistan, over Kashmir. The countries have fought wars, but when Pakistan lost all the wars, they started terrorism, which right from the first was supported by successive governments. For example in a recent intrustion into Indian territory (Kargil war), it was the Pak govt. who was doing it but pretending that it was the “rogue” elements. Things have changed now I hope, with the democratic govt. One cannot be sure.

    Shefaly, yes our own media is biased too, but not as badly as the Pakistani media. That is what I think.

    Vikram, hmm, not at all suprised. the blame game is for political compulsions ofcourse. vote banks. elections are round the corner.

    stud.boy, there is proof, now it sure. I hope you are right and this opportunity is taken to do something that works.

    Destination Infinity, now its come out that it is pakistan. there is satellite evidence too. but I agree one should nto jump the gun.

    Kiran, you have articulated the feelings of people well, don’t know whom to trust anymore.

    Odzer, I believe our media is more balanced. Just my perception.

    Sajan, true their media has simply picked up stuff from our own and are using it by twisting it to suit themselves.

    Abhay, all terrorists are criminals. All terrorism needs to be condemned.

    Gopinath, now we know that our govt. was right all along. Frankly now I am thinking that the Lashkar wanted the world to know that its Pakistan. They want to destablise pak.

  45. December 4, 2008 2:04 pm

    Sunny, true and this time bomb has already exploded on the Pakistanis themselves.

    rags, I think they know the problem but cannot control it. For eg. I won’t be surprised if the civilian govt. there has been intimidated and threatened. They are very weak.

    Vinod, frankly we may not be pious but yes the successive govt. there have promoted terrorism in India. Like you mentioned, Kargil is a recent example. It was Musharaff who sent the “terrorists” who were actually Pak men in uniform across the border. I think there is no point saying that in any way we are comparable to them. Imagine if our army had done the same to them? What if a group of 10 people from an extremist party in India had crossed over from Mumbai to Karachi? Lets see things for what they are.

    Amit, yes pure rubbish isn’t it. I think its the readers who are being made a fool of and we need to pity them. And yes, laugh at them!

    Shailesh, frankly I am not comfortable with either “tit for tat” or “by hook or by crook.” In the end it always boomerangs. But no one here thinks that India is involved in the attack although there is suspicion that some local support was made available. And well I think some action will be taken. So lets wait and see.

    Reema, well, maybe not directly, but they can avoid going the other way.

    sunny, you are right. we need to remember that the media has its own motives for writing what it does and not expect too much of it.

    arvind, good otherwise we will put him through a narco test! :)

    Phantom, I think you should be less cynical and see it in the perspective of history. India has suffered for over 20 years and the Kashmir issue is a huge wound. Lets not fall into conspiracy theories, lets give the investigating agencies some respect. we have had investigating agencies from all over the world coming to mumbai examining the evidence. they would never cover up a conspiracy.

    lifeofhues, true, they can twist everything for their own convenience. But that doesn’t say much for their intelligence or sense of balance.

    nadeem, as you said in Pakistan there is sectarian violence. You said it absolutely right, if all Hindus had extremist feelings, muslims would never have survived and thrived in India. And we all know that Hindus have dwindled in number in Pakistan, and I think the reasons are obvious.

    Francina, thanks.

    Joeshik, I agree that pakistan has been behind terror attacks in India since the 80′s and until 9/11, western powers let India suffer and refused to believe it. The whole world believes it now and yes I too think that the average Pakistani has anti-India feelings. Well, that is fine, because we in India also have anti-Pakistani feelings, but we are not creating terror in that country.

    Bharat, hmm, pretty crazy, that video. Pakistani extremist media for you.

    Yuva, well, I am willing to give the Pak govt. the benefit of the doubt but their latest statement that they are not willing to hand over terrorists is nto giving me much confidence.

    An Indian, mubaikar, I think they are already facing the brunt of their terrorism. They refused to believe that terrorist organisations in their country were bombing India since the 80′s and now those organisations are bombing them too.

    kalakaar, common people are never involved, but living in denial is not good for anybody.

    Phantom, blaming Pak for these attacks is certainly not biased or prejudiced. The terrorist organisations there have been creating trouble in Kashmir for the last 25 years. However I do not think that it is Islam. Every religion can be misinterpreted.

  46. An Indian, mumbaikar permalink
    December 4, 2008 2:25 pm

    Someone please gift a dictonary to pakistan….we are giving them evidence after evidence….and still they say they didnt get any evidence against them…I think either they dont know the meaning of evidence or they are totally dumb….Pakistan is on the defensive…if there is war then they are a gonner….They have threats from taliban, internal riots are like daily soaps for the pakistani people, suicide bombing is like their part time profession and apart from that if india backed by usa and israel go on a war with pakistan they will simply vanish from the map…they need to accept the fact and help us rather than opposing us and falling in deeper trouble…Grow up people of pakistan…its time you understand your moral responsibility…

  47. An Indian, mumbaikar permalink
    December 4, 2008 2:27 pm

    nina how can i actively get updates from you regarding which blog you are starting and all that…i want to be a regular blogger here…help me with this please.

    I will write to you about this. – Nita.

  48. joeshik permalink
    December 4, 2008 2:52 pm

    I have been surfing Voraciously on the internet to see the international reaction on the Mumbai terror. Was astonished to see that not a single Islamic country(except for highly cynicla Pakistan) did’nt utter a single word against the acts. Not a single Muslim body in India or not in India have critisized the act or have pledged help to stop this kind of terror emerging from the community. Why so? After all in India they live a good and blessed life.

    Ever since the attacks muslims in India have been speaking out against the terror attacks. They refused on the first day itself to bury the dead terrorists in muslim cemetries. Every single day since the attacks there are muslim groups denouncing the terror and today in fact there was an article urging the govt. to take strong action against Pak. On the Mumbai vigil on dec 03, there were many muslims. I read all these things in the Indian print media. Frankly I do not think one can find these items by a simple google search as I do not even know if they are uploaded. As I read them in print, I have not searched for them. Maybe if you lived in India you would have read these things. – Nita.

  49. Phantom permalink
    December 4, 2008 4:43 pm

    All – pls see the below video clips, Pak media’s response to this recent tragedy.

    http://www.hotklix.com/?ref=content/152704

    http://www.hotklix.com/?ref=content/152704

    I am amazed at the partisan, anti-india rhetoric in these 2 video clips. It is bordering on the ridiculous, and appears to me more a “bitchy” defensive stab at India, rather than a genuine fact-backed explaination of lhow and why pak is not involved. Given that the audience of this and other similar interviews/media clips, are the Pak people, it only goes to show how biased and propoganda-centric the pak media and public is. I say the public too, as the media is only a reflection of what the public needs or wants to know. Are the media in Pak completely oblivious of their nation’s long established tryst with terror activities, terrorist camps and open endorsement by ISI of militant activities???

    I think this type of media is yellow journalism of the worst kind. – Nita.

  50. mahnoor permalink
    December 4, 2008 8:04 pm

    LoL rehman chacha,I also saw that comical news on Go Chanel about the Star News dramatic breaking news.Its sad how people can believe such stuff

  51. wishtobeanon permalink
    December 4, 2008 8:25 pm

    Here’s more, Nita – I got the link from Times of India: http://www.hotklix.com/?ref=content/157547

    These clips show that a fringe extremist element in Pak controls some media! – Nita.

  52. joeshik permalink
    December 4, 2008 9:19 pm

    What ever u say Nita, there is a very urgent need to modernize and educate the muslim polulation in India. Or we may face a civil war soon.
    Also we should get rid of leaders wooing hindus or muslims or Christians/ Sikhs for votes and thus separating our fragile society even more.
    Young and literated politicians from every religion and sphere of live ” a common Indian” should play an active and major part in India’s life!! O boy I’m nervous about my country and my fellow countrymen!((((((

  53. Vinod permalink
    December 5, 2008 8:00 am

    Vinod, frankly we may not be pious but yes the successive govt. there have promoted terrorism in India.

    My Pakistani housemates acknowledge that their govt has encouraged terrorism, but not the type that has happened in Mumbai. They assert that it is restricted to kashmir alone.

    It was Musharaff who sent the “terrorists” who were actually Pak men in uniform across the border
    Pak menin uniform? Did Pakistan admit that? Or was it just one of the many allegations of the Indian govt that we tend to trust since it is directed against our pet enemies?

  54. Vinod permalink
    December 5, 2008 8:01 am

    I’m also told that it was India’s direct help of the rebel groups in Bangladesh that split East and West Pakistan. Is there really a qualitative difference between India’s meddling in former East Pakistan and that of Pakistan in Kashmir?

    Vinod, kindly do not believe everything you are “told.” Kindly read the history of the war, by independent analysts. – Nita.

  55. December 5, 2008 9:14 am

    Vinod, the assistance to rebel groups was in response to the genocide of Bengalis committed by the Pakistani army and the mass exodus of refugees to India. There are well cited articles on this issue in wikipedia. Please dont come back with some lame excuse as to why you dont want to believe this.

    The uprising in Kashmir, in contrast, was due to the suppression of the political aspirations of many Kashmiris and the rigging of the 1987 election.

    So your Pakistani housemates think its okay to encourage some kind of terrorism and not others ? Can you tell me exactly what kinds of terrorism are allowed to thrive there and what are not ?

    Nobody is saying that the average Pakistani’s are to be blamed for the extremism in their country. Just like nobody can blame the average Indian for the extremism in our country. But guess what, Hindu terrorists get charged and sent to jail, and people like Modi are not allowed to rest by our civil society. Can you ask your housemates where their civil society was when they had terrorists training on their soil ?

  56. Vinod permalink
    December 5, 2008 9:35 am

    Nita, the advise to consultat reports by independent analyst is taken. I’ll do that.

    Vikram, if you have not noticed, I have refrained from voicing my personal opinion on this matter other than raising questions and conveying what my hse mates have to say. I don’t want to form an opinion till I hear all sides to the matter.

  57. Vinod permalink
    December 5, 2008 9:44 am

    Can you ask your housemates where their civil society was when they had terrorists training on their soil ?

    1 As rags said, the ISI is a state within a state. Nobody knows what goes on there. It seems to be under the control of a few generals.

    2 The average Pakistanis hardly got to have any real democracy at all. The citizen’s participation is virtually non-existent. The army has been the only stable institution. Once the army entered the political arena, there was no removing it. The country, Vikram, is near hopelessly dysfunctional. Heck, they are wondering whether Pakistan has any real identity at all. That is a big debate among the middle class Pakistani. One of my house mate actually thinks Pakistan will soon split up into smaller provinces.

  58. Vinod permalink
    December 5, 2008 10:21 am

    Another point, even the judiciary in Pakistan, has been emasculated for decades since Pakistan’s independence. The recent rise of the judiciary against Musharraf is not to be taken as a sign of a historically healthy one.

    The point is, the country (Pakistan) is out of control. It is run by the army and that too a few powerful people within it. The political parties can hardly sit at the same table and seem to be unusually prone to corruption and assasinations of each other when they are given power. The people are utterly hopeless and want nothing to do with politics. Heck, even an important city like Karachi now has hours of power outage and water issues. On top of that, ISI’s fanning of terrorist groups has come back to bite them. Their own citizens are targets of such groups.

    Leave alone terrorists, even the common political criminal does not get prosecuted in anyway. Nawaz Shariff, Benazir Bhutto and everyone else is guilty of fraud and corruption. But they all go scott free. The current PM of Pakistan was a full fledged thug at one point. He is now going around the globe with a begging bowl.

    The North West Frontier Province is a place where the Pakistani govt – the army or anything else – has little to no control and is strongly disliked by the local population. In fact, the people from NWFP are looked upon as a strange group in the rest of Pakistan with their different racial appearance, language and their brand of Islam.

    There are constant power struggles between the dominant punjabi community and the rest of Sindhis, Karachi-ites and Baluchis. Then there is a power struggle between the religious right and the religious moderates and the secularists. The Punjabis treat Pakistan as their own and the rest of them as outsiders – migrants from India. The muslims of India are given a mere sympathetic look with a passing “tsk-tsk” comment that they chose to remain behind.

    It is important to be cognizant of this internal point of view of Pakistan. There is just one thing that works over there now – Food. The Lahori kebabs are still the best.

  59. joeshik permalink
    December 5, 2008 9:59 pm

    Vinod,
    U can not play on both sides at a given time. At the end of the day only the OUTCOME counts. What ever may be the situation in Pakistan, What ever may be a common person is exposed to in his day to day life, the fact reains flat and nacked– we can’t bare it for ever on their behalf. U talk about oudated events(1965,1972), when majority of us were not even born. World was a different place then. Not to go back a little more into the memory lane(1947), who started the massacre? Lahori kababs? Who surrendered to whom in Lahore in 1972? This all is not needed now. We should leave bad memories behind and live and let other live! I am bothered about my children today! I don’t find world a safe place and PAKISTAN has a role to play in this. The first thing is for the extremist Muslims is to understand the difference between the exact clear translation of the holy Quran and the translation being produced to a common muslim by the so called Lords of Modern Islam which is highly volatile and aggrresive.

  60. Phantom permalink
    December 6, 2008 4:21 am

    Some of Vinod’s points ring true. Pak is in essence a failed state, still alarmingly feudal in nature, with literally a bunch of ultra wealthy high profile familes controlling the fortunes and destiny of this country. The army is not just a public service in Pak, it is a self-thinking,self-preserving, frighteningly autonomous body that really does not see eye to eye with civil administation. What does an entity that has tasted power want…they want more power. The army and ISI are a “state within a state”, and their operations, agendas and motivations are quite distanced from that off the bureaucracy and politicians.

    The avg Pakistani doesnt know the meaning of democracy, he has seen political party after party ravage the country’s resources, he has seen the military govt use the underlying currents of anti-india sentiment to channel the population’s energies and attention away from other aspects of governance (economy, public service etc).

    Besides, the minorities like baluchis, frontier tribes, are really completely outside the control of the govt as well as the army…their radical islamic way of life and allegience to the Taliban in neghbouring Afghanistan poses a threat to pak leaders who didtance themselves from the islamic cleric lobby, who seek to make Pak more theocratic, i.e. less democratic and subsequently, more antagonistic against India.

    India is also rampant with corruption, however in the midst of all the chaos, there is political and financial stability, there is some transparency into the ownership and allocation of resources, and most importantly, we dont have the army in India clamouring to take control of the country. Niether do we have political and communal back-fighting on a scale that is seen in Pak between the incumbent Punjabi majority vs the Sindhis, Mohajirs (name given to muslims in pak who went over from India during partition) and the Pathans.

    I really do feel that India is not coherent or firm enough in its policy with Pak, and this allows Pak to toy with the circumstances. As the larger and more influential country, on a global scale (economically, politically, diplomatically) India should woo the world’s opinion towards imposing iperatives onto Pak, to sort out its home grown islamic radicalism, its endorsement of over-border terrorist activities, its political instability and the ideological inclination of a segment of pak population with the Taliban and other right wing islamic groups. If India gets the UN and other members of the OECD world to take this stance against Pak, then Pak will listen as it cannot then blame India for adopting an aggressive big-neighbour-bully stance. Where are the lobbyists from India in washington and brussels….???

  61. Vinod permalink
    December 6, 2008 6:16 am

    U can not play on both sides at a given time

    I’m forced to, Joeshik. There is a certain voluntary blindness embraced by both sides about each other. It’s also there in your post. I find that conducive to sustaining prejudices and an unsympathetic attitude against each other. It is important that we recognize who they are – see the full range of the social personality in each country and not think of them as monolothic entities. It wouldn’t be too inaccurate to say that Indians tend to have this monolothic idea of Pakistani society than vice versa – the men wearing shalwar kameez, bearded with Kashalnikovs while the women are dressed in all black burqah and all being unanimously India-hating. It’s easy for Indians to do that because of 2 reasons – (i) Pakistan is a muslim country and (ii) Pakistan is a 90% muslim country. There is a I-don’t-give-a-damn-to-what-happens-in-that-shithole-country-of-yours attitude when Indians talk about Pakistan.

    On the other hand it is more difficult for Pakistanis to do that about India. The reason for that, is that there is a huge number of muslims in Pakistan that vividly remember the migration during partition. One of my Pakistani friend’s father got to know of the existence of a brother in Mumbai recently after decades of losing contact since the days of partition. He wanted his son to go to India and pay his respects to his new uncle. With such emotional bonds with India, many Pakistanis are likely to see India as the home of their fathers. My house mates’ father cannot stop talking about the beauty of Hyderabad and the life in India. It’s ironical, isn’t it? That in a Pakistani household, the seniromost member talks about India with longing in his heart.

    Staying with my Pakistani friends they have come to know so much about India and I have come to know so much about Pakistan. They only had a vague idea of North India before they met me. Now they know so much about the South that they wonder how India can be one country with such diversity. Similarly, I think I know more about Karachi and Islamabad than I know about Mumbai and Bangalore. I hope that relations between India and Pakistan can thaw because I do want to go to Lahore and have those kababs.

    I really wish more Indians and Pakistanis could talk to each other – simply about who they are. I wish that Indians and Paksitanis could visit each other. We would know that we are talking about a society that is perhaps closest to ours and perhaps the very fact of the similarity would melt hearts to a small extent on both sides.

    Lastly, the Lahori kababs was supposed to be a fun comment. I’m surprised at the way you reacted at that.

    Sorry folks, I think I have drifted way away from the topic of the thread.

  62. December 6, 2008 6:22 am

    Vinod, the issue of Kashmir is complex and no party has clean hands in this. So, let’s share the blame instead of holding only one party (India) responsible.

    As for Bangladesh, you can do a search for Operation Searchlight and read about it.

  63. Vinod permalink
    December 6, 2008 6:34 am

    Amit, I don’t think I held any country responsible for anything explicitly. I have only raised questions which seem as if I’m taking the side of Pakistan (the conclusion is unwarranted but I understand that it comes from the overenthusiastic nationalism of Indians when the subject is Pakistan). There are 2 reasons for me doing that – Firstly, this is a blog site that is dominated by Indians and has no Pakistani at all. Heck, there are no Indians with Pakistani friends either. Secondly, would we rather have all Indians simply echo-ing each other and engaging in GroupThink?

    I haven’t tried to absolve Pakistan of its guilt. But what I have tried to do is for Indians to have a more understanding view of Pakistan. It all starts with the attitude of the individual citizen in each country.

    I really wish both countries could look beyond man-made artificial borders and look at the Real people that they are talking about instead. There would then be less of the ‘them’ and more of the ‘us’. I think we (citizens of both countries) are playing into the hands of politcians and the media.

    Thanks for the tip about Operation Searchlight.

  64. mahnoor permalink
    December 6, 2008 1:45 pm

    According to pakistani media,the terrorist boy was sikh and all terrorists are indians,it was orchestrated by the BJP to win the upcoming election.Sure makes sense to me,In india the party who tries to unseccessfully bash Pakistan more,that party is comes to power.Your politics is based on anti-Pakistani sentiments.You sad people,time to learn to live and let live.Pakistanis are so loving.

  65. joeshik permalink
    December 6, 2008 8:02 pm

    Vinod,
    I am a peace loving individual. I was a fun loving, easy going, peace loving creature. In my family there a 2 muslim brides( One from Dubai ad the other from Pakistan). This is enough to explain the level of democracy and secularism of my Hindu family. But Vinod, we can’t keep on to be on the receiving end! Pakistani people can’t change their fee;ings may be due to many reasons as u pointed out… but does it really help?

  66. December 7, 2008 6:05 am

    Vinod, your point is well taken. There is quite a lot of propaganda against Pakistan in India, but it usually revolves around the actions of the ISI and the Pakistani army.

    I infact visit the sites of Pakistani bloggers and of course they are rational people. But I have noticed one thing, many of them seem to mention that they want to live as ‘equals’ of India. Of course there are many ways in which they are equal and even ‘ahead’ of India, but the general idea does not make sense to me. I hope you see why.

    And this desire to be ‘equal’ percolates all the way to the top. When Pakistan fought India in 1965, a lot of the logic was that Hindu Indians cannot win against the Muslim Pakistanis, a sentiment aroused by the existence of previous Islamic empires in India (empires in which most Indians take a lot of pride and consider integral parts of their history). When they realized they could not overpower India, sections of their establishment began this proxy war against India, and this was overlooked by their politicians and even their media.

  67. December 7, 2008 6:07 am

    One more thing, I dont think Pakistanis see India as a pluralistic, multi-cultural entity. Inspite of being fully aware of the huge number of Muslims and other minorities in India, they seem to view India as essentially a Hindu nation. It would be interesting to know if your roommates feel that way and if they do, why it is so.

  68. December 7, 2008 8:00 am

    Vinod, I’d think that most Indian citizens do not harbor hatred for an average Pakistani citizen. But the fact of the matter is that their government is helpless and the radical elements within their society are harming both the Pakistanis and Indians. So, steps need to be taken to protect Indian citizens. Dialog with Pakistanis is good – they are most welcome to read this blog and comment here.

    There may be man-made borders, but internet transcends such borders. Invite your friends to comment here. Ask them what’s their opinion of Taliban and Taliban version of Islam.

  69. December 7, 2008 8:38 am

    Amit you are quite right but when you an Indian the affected party can think that way why not those pakistan though that way. Its all about the enviorment and up bringing. They are told and shown a bad picture of India and Hindus. They hardly know the reality. They are told that Indian muslim are victimised in India by Hindus , security forces and Governement. So they sitting on a hate wave against India.
    Its not the internet savy people who are against India. Its the hardcore muslim idology which think otherwise,

  70. Vinod permalink
    December 7, 2008 9:07 am

    Amit, Joeshik, Vikram

    Your open-mindedness is most appreciated. I’m glad there are level-headed Indians like you that I can identify with in all the acrimony between the two nations.

    Vinod, I’d think that most Indian citizens do not harbor hatred for an average Pakistani citizen. But the fact of the matter is that their government is helpless and the radical elements within their society are harming both the Pakistanis and Indians. So, steps need to be taken to protect Indian citizens.

    I don’t know what the solution is to the problem between India and Pakistan. All that I know is that the current atittude (generally speaking) is strongly hateful and any solution emanating from such an attitude is bound to be inhumane and counter productive in some way. I don’t think we should be taking our lessons on dealing with terrorism from Israel and the US, unless you’re comfortable with a Palestine instead of a Pakistan.

    Vikram, you do raise an important point. Pakistanis do characterize us as a Hindu nation. I find that funny everytime I hear that. I think it is in the nature of a community that has a religious identity to see others in religious hues as well. But that’s just social psychology. My housemates have dropped that view of India after having recognized how widely diverse we are. I have shown them pictures of India that Nita posted and they looked at it and said – “This could as well be Karachi”. The only exceptional thing about the picture of India that is absent in Pakistan (I’ll bet nobody can guess this…) is that there are no women riding scooters in Pakistan!!! It just doesn’t happen. Nobody knows why. It is socially unacceptable for a woman to ride a scooter there (athough cars are just fine) and it is also strange that the feminist groups (or the middle and upper classes) in Pakistan have not tried to break that norm.

    Here’s another incident I can share with you. I was once walking with a very religious muslim friend who was in a full blown religious garb with a beard, turban and all. He was from Punjab in Pakistan. On the other side of the road walking in the opposite direction was a Sikh gentleman, also looking very religious – with turban and beard and all. Out of the blue, they hailed each other in Punjabi and exchanged quick pleasantries. I was surprised and took a moment to process that. These two didn’t know each other before this day at all. They looked markedly different. But they connected instantly by language. I asked my friend about this and he said Punjabis have a bond of language that cuts across the religious and national identity.

    Ask them what’s their opinion of Taliban and Taliban version of Islam.

    Amit, have you heard of the scholar in Pakistan – Javed Ghamidi? Look him up in youtube. The videos are all in Urdu, very refined Urdu and difficult to follow. But if your familiarity with Urdu is good, you may follow it better than me. My housemates follow the Islam that is taught by this guy. You can quickly gather that it is nothing like the Taliban brand of Islam and even opposed to it.

  71. Vinod permalink
    December 7, 2008 9:33 am

    One other thing – I did get them to see one thing – that although India is not free of guilt in meddling with the internal affairs of Pakistan, India cannot be accused of supporting terrorism in Pakistan. They saw that and accept that.

    You guys must have heard about the car bomb in Pakistan yesterday that killed some 20 odd people. My house mate’s reaction – “Don’t bother me with such news unless more than 100 die. 10s and 20s dying in Pakistan in bomb blasts is a weekly affair now”

    Judging from my housemates and other Pakistani friends, Pakistanis themselves have lost hope on their society and country. I know of internet discussions among Pakistanis where they wonder whether they have anything in common now to be a nation. They’re asking whether there was any real basis for the formation of Pakistan. Few Pakistanis are optimistic about Pakistan (quite a contrast with the Indians I see). The only feelings for Pakistan remain that of a familiar culture to belong or return back to.

  72. joeshik permalink
    December 9, 2008 1:46 pm

    Pakistan said Tuesday it would not hand over any suspects in the Mumbai bombings to India, after authorities arrested 15 people in a raid on an Islamic charity linked to a banned militant group: Any more words needed to understand the motives?

  73. Vinod permalink
    December 9, 2008 3:07 pm

    I think this is another side of the picture –

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_police_under_fire

  74. Vinod permalink
    December 10, 2008 7:44 am

    Joeshik, is it unfair of Pakistan to demand an equal role in the investigation of its citizens and present solid evidence before handing over its citizens to not just another country, but a country like India?

  75. joeshik permalink
    December 12, 2008 2:16 am

    Vinod,
    What do u mean by saying “but a country like India?”. Please explain.

  76. Vinod permalink
    December 12, 2008 8:31 am

    I mean considering the historical enemity, bloodletting plus the not-so-transparent investigative methods of the Indian army/police.

  77. joeshik permalink
    December 12, 2008 1:59 pm

    Vinod,
    Ball is in the Pakistani court as from 1947 till date. They were the Precursors of all conflicts and situations with India. So they will have to take a start now. And beleive me ONLY ONE start will be enough to melt down all the hostalities between the two countries. India is much bigger and much more innocent a country then Pakistan. So Pak should take the start if it REALLY want peace. Pakistan will have to come on terms with the reallity that they can’t match India in any sphre at present and they will be a much happier, properous and vivid nation if peace is installed with India.

  78. Vinod permalink
    December 12, 2008 3:08 pm

    True, Joeshik. Despite that, handing over citizens of one country to another hostile country that also has a not-so-clean human rights record of prisoner’s treatment is too big a first step. I don’t see Pakistan’s demands as unreasonable.

  79. Vinod permalink
    December 12, 2008 3:23 pm

    To be honest, there is no sensible solution in sight.

    What Pakistan is doing is only to placate the international community till the issue is forgotten.
    One shouldn’t bet too much on Pakistan’s action. It’s a country that is on a downward spiral of an internal disaster.

    Another thing – The terrorists in Pakistan feed on the tension between the two countries to groom more terrorists and win further sympathy.

  80. Vinod permalink
    December 12, 2008 3:27 pm

    This is illuminating –

    http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20080312.htm

  81. joeshik permalink
    December 12, 2008 5:17 pm

    Vinod,
    Biological convergence, permanent parity of reccessive genes(due to family oriented marraiges) , “living in my own shell” principle and reluctance to accept the truth are some of the reasons for the degradation of the Asian Muslim world.

  82. Vinod permalink
    December 12, 2008 8:32 pm

    Joeshik, I prefer finding the reasons in the history of colonialism, its impact on the institutions of the muslim world and some geopolitics.

  83. joeshik permalink
    December 12, 2008 11:17 pm

    Vinod,
    I am a Doctor. I go by facts. History and Geo politics affected a lot of races. Intolerance to every thing which is alien to them and in the last but not the least- cowardness leading to ignorance of accepting mistakes and shortcomes has brought them in this situation! And no body wants to change anything- Sad affair.

  84. Vinod permalink
    December 14, 2008 11:34 am

    History and geopolitics have affected different people differently.

    Treating the Asian muslim world, which includes disparate countries and cultures as one, tells me more about your mindset than about Asian muslims. You probably don’t realize how similar your thoughts are, although carrying a veneer of sophistication, to the intolerance of the radical elements among muslims.

  85. joeshik permalink
    December 15, 2008 12:47 am

    Vinod,
    Don’t jump on conclusions. To find answers and solutions u need to know the problem atleast.

  86. Milind Kher permalink
    March 8, 2009 12:06 pm

    These words by a Pakistani for the attack on the Sri Lanka team I really found touching..

    On behalf of all Pakistanis, would just like to tell all our Sri Lankan friends how sad, disappointed and in fact ashamed that this incident took place. The Sri Lankan team was our guest, and unfortunately they had to go through this traumatic experience. Thank goodness all the team members survived. I still remember when your team toured Pakistan under Arjuna Ranatunga. I was a young boy, and after waiting for hours at the boundary, I was able to field the last ball of the day, which Ranatunga hit for a four.
    One day soon hopefully, Pakistan will return to a normal and safe country. Its sane millions will stand up against intolerance and violence, and make sure that foreigners are respected and welcomed to the country.
    Our prayers and best wishes for Sri Lanka, and gratitude for standing by us in these testing times.

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