The culture vultures hate pre-marital sex
The reason why the culture vultures protest against Valentine’s Day is because they feel that Valentine’s Day is a celebration of sex, not love. And to them sex before marriage is immoral and always casual. But it’s futile getting into a moral debate about pre-marital sex. Neither the moral police nor anyone else can stop it. The fact of the matter is that the average Indian is not marrying at 14 or even 18, and it’s stupid to assume that if marriage is postponed, sex will be postponed as well…given the fact that the human species reaches sexual maturity in the late teens.
If the culture vultures think that the frequency of pre-marital sex (let’s not call it casual sex) has gone up in the urban areas, darned right it has. Any collegian will tell you that pre-marital sex has become more common over the last decade or so and in fact a recent three-year study of male college students in Maharashtra by the Family Planning Association of India confirmed this. Collegians are now “more likely to have sex with friends, classmates, neighbours and relatives rather than visit commercial sex workers.” The frequency of visiting CSWs reduced from 23% in 2004 to 3% in 2008.
I can only think of this as a good trend, not bad. Going to prostitutes is more risky from the point of view of getting diseases like AIDS, and also it can also make men feel a little guilty. In any case no one likes paying for sex.
This survey also point to another thing…that more women (who are not sex workers) are having sex. Now you can guess why the moral vultures are so outraged. It’s not men who are having sex, but women too! As long as pre-marital sex is restricted to young men and prostitutes they can tolerate it, but not if young women behave the same way as the men.
In any case it’s going to be a long time before Indians catch up with the west when it comes to sexual mores. The moral vultures can take comfort in the fact that the way things are now, most Indians, particularly from the rural areas do tend to think that premarital sex is immoral. The changes in rural sexual mores will be slower, and this would partly be due to the fact that rural youth tend to marry earlier than urban youth. A 2004 study among 1,500 rural college students (800 male and 700 female) in Maharashtra’s Thane district showed that that not only do most of the youth disapprove of pre-marital sex, they feel it is more wrong for females to indulge in it.
That Indians still lose their virginity much later than people from other countries is borne out by another survey, the 2007 Face of Global Sex Report by Durex. The report says that on an average an Indians are 22 years old when they lose their virginity. Indians are second only to the Malaysians (23 years) when it comes to being the oldest to lose their virginity. Those in Singapore do it by the time “they’re 22.8 years old, the Chinese wait till they’re 22.1, Thais till 20.5, those in Hong Kong till 20.2, while the Japanese do it at a young 19.4 years”. Overall, in Asian countries sex happens at an older age as compared to the west.
Austrians were the first to lose their virginity at 17.3 years old, followed by Brazilians (17.4), Germans (17.6), New Zealanders (17.8), Australians (17.9) and Americans (18.0).
The moral police better sit up and listen…the writing is on the wall. Young Indians are gradually going to shed their inhibitions and start to do it at younger and younger ages. Men will feel less of a need to go to prostitutes…and will do it with their girl-friends instead. I don’t understand why the moral vultures cannot see this as a celebration of love, not sex! An encounter with a sex worker is purely about sex, but a sexual encounter with a girl-friend need not be. In fact there is every reason to believe that street molestation will decrease as men who find it impossible to go to sex workers will be able to find fulfillment with their girl-friends as sexual mores relax.
And whether the couples are being “immoral” or not is best left to the couples’ own morality and sense of right or wrong. What the couples need to be taught is how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, the knowledge of which is mostly inadequate. In this scenario I was rather shocked to hear some moral police on a television talk show rant and rave against an ipill advertisement Teenagers are going to have sex f they want to, whether they know about the ipill or not. In fact unprotected sex is on the rise and this is what we need to prevent.
We also need to prevent street molestation. Rest assured that the moral culture vultures will never protest against street molestation because they are more scandalised, shocked and outraged if a woman consents, rather than if she is forced. Can you imagine them dragging out boys and men who are teasing and molesting women from a public bus, dragging them out by the hair, pushing and punching them? I can’t.
(Photo is copyrighted to me)
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A wide angle view of India 
you may have a very valid Indian perspective. for me, from an American perspective, I dislike Valentines Day simply because it commercializes love. it is not a promotion of caring and demonstrating appreciation for people in whatever manner best demonstrates it for you, rather there is an emphasis on buying gifts, cards, candies, flowers, dinners, etc.,. . . .its a commercial holiday; sex is a substantially secondary because they cannot directly sell it to you.
@ Nita : Sex is an interesting issue in India. There are a few things that I find truly amazing about this society. One the issues that really amuses is how ‘Sex’ is discussed in India. If you observe that carefully you will notice how archaic the structured society here is about it :
1) Outrage of modesty : What is this supposed to mean? It can be anything from eve teasing to rape.
2) Sodomised : Male rape basically. I wonder why Indian print media never uses the word ‘Rape’ in case of men.
3) Strength and Vigour aka ‘Mardana Josh‘ : I see these two words plastered over walls all over the countryside. He he he.
4) Martial Bliss : Regular old fashioned after marriage snogging or shagging.
5) Immodest behaviour : Kissing, holding hands (except with same gendered friends!), being caught doing it in a public garden…..
I could go on but these words reflect the hypocrisy of it all in India. A country with a billion people is obviously having sex. We even wrote THE book on sex so lets being complete and utter idiots and just let people be. I like your post, I say strength to you! As for the culture vultures, remember vultures are an endangered species near extinction.
Male chauvinism
As you say “but not if young women behave the same way as the men” –I feel once women have sex with different men, they start comparing (the performance)…which these male chauvinists can’t accept….
LOL… I wonder, if Mr. Muthalik read that survey and is now planning his next move..
“Attack anyone [read:girls/women]who comes to a pharmacy, to buy a condom/contraceptive pills!!” Condoms are not Indian Culture and so is contraception…
SAD..very very sad!! I wonder has anyone done a survey of “Sales of condoms” v/s “Sales of iPills”… I assume girls find it easier to buy iPill or Unwanted-72 rather than Durex Dotted StrawBerry 😦
And I would like to blame it upon Media and Government Censorships… They should promote advertising condoms instead of emergency contraceptives. Gov. agencies don’t ban these Ec’s ads only because they don’t show skin/lovemaking etc, and condom ads despite being more important , are banned only beacuse they show a bit of men-women indulging in sex.. It gives out a very wrong message that sex is safe with these EC’s..but its not… Until you are with a single partner, nothing can decrease the risk of HIV…
Sexual freedom is not a paap but the responsibility attached is even higher.. People should understand the cons before taking advantages of the pros…
so true.. the moral police is only after women. a man may behave in any ‘immoral’ way but it is justified as he is a man. a woman even if caught holding hands is seen as a moral rule breaker.
on Valentine’s in Ujjain a bro – sis duo were harassed by the moral police just suspecting they were a couple.
permarital sex is a very personal decision. should be left to the couple to decide. yes unwanted pregnencies must be avoided. not because that is immoral (to have sex) but because bringing a new life when you are not ready to take the responsibility is wrong and it wil either lead to abortions (not good for the woman/girl medically as it may effect in later life) or orphans (left on their own)
Hey, you are back! Wonder how I missed your last post…but haven’t you seen my latest post?
Poonam, I didn’t have my internet connection for two weeks and am behind in reading blogs. But there is no way I am going to miss a post of yours and you can expect me there soon! 🙂
where were you madam???
But a comeback with a good point (as usual! 🙂 )
I have nothing to add as i wholeheatedly agree with you 🙂
In our country we dare not even talk bout this premarital issue….
remember some south indian heroine… she acknowledged it and had to later apologise ??
Its all okk in hush hush corners… but the moment any one wants to talk bout it or be honest about it !!
Beware… the idiots (what all call moral police) will beat you up and bash you up !!
And whether the couples are being “immoral” or not is best left to the couples’ own morality and sense of right or wrong. What the couples need to be taught is how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, the knowledge of which is mostly inadequate.
That is the heart of the issue. With a fear of “losing control” over others (read mostly women), and people still arguing whether sex education should be a part of education or not, we do have a long way to go.
Welcome back Nita 🙂 Hope you love your new home.
SS/IC
[ “Boys preferred friends to CSWs, as they had to spend less money on sex. They also perceived a much lower risk of contracting HIV with friends and others,’’] 🙂
Boys…will be boys! Always money-minded and how easily they equated ‘friends’ to CSWs. 🙂
[ “Boys preferred friends to CSWs, as they had to spend less money on sex. They also perceived a much lower risk of contracting HIV with friends and others,’’] 🙂
Boys…will be boys! Always money-minded and how easily they equated ‘friends’ to non-remunerative CSWs. 🙂
double post! how this happened?
Hey great to see you back and that to with a very relevant post! Just browsed through it, now I am going to read it peacefully.
debatable perseption in India.
Man can njoy woman…she can be used n reverse is not true. N if reverse exists it is immoral…then woman is prostitute……..
Very true Nita. Indeed the problem is with women embracing their sexuality. These ‘moral’ policemen, need the initiative of sex to be their domain. They need it to be a way of dominating women, even if it means raping them. I had done a post on sex education in India a while back, and I think it is extremely important that the kids are properly informed and educated about the entire thing, rather than learning from hear say and going unprotected.
🙂 I prefer it the old fashioned way-not to have premarital sex..But thatz just my opinion,I would never look down on people who make different choices.But then,they should atleast take care not to get pregnant.Saying ‘Ooo,it happened accidentaly, and i got pregnant and now i want to abort the baby is stupid’..If you can’t take care,don’t go for it.
But then again,I was wondering how this would affect in marial relationships..like having the thought that your partner has been with somebody else at a different point of life..I don’t know,it seem odd and wrong to me..I wonder how people can become 70mm wide hearted to take it lightly that their partner has sex with n number of people.
Don’t tell me that all of them are going to marry the person they loved during 15-17 years.when we grow old,we grow mature (atleast some people grow mature) and likes and dislikes changes,goals in life changes,attitude changes and I wonder how many will hang on with the same partner at 25,that they had during 15 years..what if they having this guilty feeling of ‘I could have waited more’…
Ah well,i don’t know..I don’t like this concept .I feel weird when some people say that ‘We should test the vehicle before we buy it’…
But i agree with the moral police aspect you mentioned..they have no issues of men going to CSW,but they can’t take it if women have sex before marriages..that isn’t fair..I was talking about both men and women waiting until marriage..
Just my two cents 🙂
Nimmy, I agree and disagree with you about “how a person feels about the spouse’s past”.
If I have saved my virginity for Mr./Ms. Special, it would be very difficult for me to understand why they couldn’t save theirs. ‘Did they have someone special already? Am I more special than their ex? Or am I just a substitute? Am I better than the ex?’But if I have had a past myself, I can totally understand. Then it becomes ‘Meri bhi chup, teri bhi chup’ or “we have gotten over the past” or “we respect each other’s past”. But this type of jealousy comes up even if only one spouse had an ex; being sexually active in the relationship is immaterial.
It is very important that spouses to start at the same level. It’s UTTERLY RIDICULOUS to expect/demand a spouse to be a virgin, if you aren’t.
@Nimmy how many guys and even gals for that matter tell their future spouses about their past sex lives? 😀
At the end of it, I think its a personal choice. A couple should realize and understand all the repercussions and consequences before going for the home run 🙂
@Nita Absolutely correct analysis! I really think if Indian society was not that this much sexually repressive, we girls would have lived in a much safer place.
lol..yeah,you are right,nobody tells it..Why?Bcoz they feel it was wrong..
I don’t want to argue on right and wrong as it is subjective.My point was about about pregnancy and unwanted kids.
But please refer to the facts that in a sexually free society like America,the rate of sex crimes is too high.Why should it happen if things were right there? By telling this,i don’t mean that total seclusion either is right.There is something called moderation-in between America and Afghanistan-and i prefer to live my life in such a place..
One can disagree with me that Indians are sexually deprived and hence they molest women.If that was case,why would men in America rape or abuse women? (I said US bcoz it is considered as a free society unlike our conservative one)
We have lot of issues within,we are no saints..but rather than trying to reach the benchmark of lower age of losing virginity,I think different solutions should come up-as of now i don’t know what is the solution,so don’t ask me for it 🙂
Nimmy, rape and molestation is far more prevalent in India than America. If you read my post on crime I have analysed and actually proved that these crimes are not reported in India. In fact it is also a well known fact that not even 1 in a hundred rapes is reported in India. Also molestation in crowds and eve-teasing is far less prevalent in western countries. That sexual repression is one of the causes is also true I think. Certainly not the only cause as a lack of respect for women is also a big cause.
P.S also no one is searching for a solution. Nature will take its course in a free country like India and no amount of moralising by anyone will help.
You know what, I might seem like a pre-historic dinosaur here but I agree with Nimmy. If a man/woman has had sex before marriage I feel their prospective bride/bridegroom has a right to know about it. People who feel it is shameful to divulge such details should not do it in the first place or should probably marry someone who’ll be o.k. with that. What’s so great about ‘true love’ and marriage if you can’t be true about your past? And yeah, I disapprove of pre-marital sex but that is only my view.
@Nimmy: You say USA is a sexually liberated country. That’s a truth with modifications, because in western standards USA is very religious and repressive, as is many parts of Europe still. In some countries the christian priests still has the final say when it comes to sexual matters, and 2000 years of christianity have taught us that religion + sex = disaster. The sex education is bad, faulty or non-existant in those countries, and that coupled with the idea of molestation being the woman’s fault since she “tempted” the molester by her dress or even her very presence, of course gives rise to trouble, as it does everywhere under such conditions.
“But then again,I was wondering how this would affect in marial relationships..like having the thought that your partner has been with somebody else at a different point of life”
This is all about attitude. Why is sex such a big deal? I don’t know how Indians think, not being one myself, I can only speak for the culture I’ve grown up in. In countries where pre-marital sex is the norm, people simply doesn’t care. They take for granted that you’ve had many partners before them, because they and everyone else have. In some places, for example where I live, it’s even expected, “coming out” as a 23-year-old virgin will make female prospects back away because it almost certainly will be assumed that you’re either diseased, disabled, or a “religious freak”, so to speak. To refuse sex before marriage is accepted, but considered weird and again, very rare. Here is where gender equality kicks in, it’s pretty much the same deal for girls. Being good in bed is a merit.
Being a woman grown up in this kind of society, it’s hard for me to understand what the opposite is like, to actually want a partner who has no experience at all, who has no clue what sex is like or how to handle my body and feelings. These are things kids learn in school, starting from early puberty, with unlimited opportunity to continue studies *cough* in their spare time. And to actually have to stick to that partner, no matter if things work between us or not, is even harder. Major culture clash, because in the absence of marriage (which is considered the extreme end of the line), sex is only one of many guidelines by which people judge how “serious” a relationship is.
archana…it is a relative theory and what you said is true if the concept of marriage comes in-between! first night mother-in-laws searching for blood stains still exist (man cannot be booked, woman can be booked-natural law!).
but to my mind men who go for outside-wedlock sex frequently do not mind being broad-minded (if left to themselves and their own decisions). this is because it ensures a continuity of their old ways. some men also find it useful to allow their women to live their own lives. it is a compromise. but these scenarios can only be there where life is one of sex and money and position. there family has no value. relations have no value either. the concept of wife-husband does not exist. and children are a definite no-no. it is a choice, ultimately, which life one wants to lead.
the only mature human being is the woman. in my opinion most men are likely to be wanton and krishnites (at any age below 90) if given a chance. women mature quicker than men and are always the ones who can control men (to some extent at least). imagine a society where the women are also seekers of extra sensual pleasures? whither this civilisation?
It is tough to see what is their problem…I mean what the hell is their problem what I do?
And I agree with your view,as we get married later,we do tend to feel the “urge” (if that is the right word) and suppressing will only lead to problems…
And on prostitution,I think making it legal will help protect minor girls from being exploited and also help create awareness..but we live in a country where we first need to put a law for people to respect the law….Ya the smoking thing…have a few pics on that ,but don’t have the time to construct it(if you plan to do,tell me I will send you a couple of pics 🙂 )
Nita, I was also surprised to hear some learned men complain about i pill.
Gender bias is evident in the reactions to premarital sex in India. I agree with you-//As long as pre-marital sex is restricted to young men and prostitutes they can tolerate it, but not if young women behave the same way as the men.//
Hi Nita, good to see you back!
Good post.
“… the moral culture vultures will never protest against street molestation because they are more scandalised, shocked and outraged if a woman consents, rather than if she is forced.” — Truer words have never been said.
It’s true in general… if a woman raises her voice against anything, it’s scandalous. If she accepts being beaten, people “understand” and everything is fine. And it’s the fellow women who seem to do this “understanding” more often.
Indians on an average lose virginity only at 22? Seriously?? Oh wait.. they are talking about straight sex.. Oops! Sorry!!
The real reason why the attacks happened in Mangalore is because of the sexual repression of the Ram Sene guys. If they had their way they would gladly sleep around with the girls around town. Since they’ve either been rebuffed or more likely don’t have the balls to approach the girls, they choose to vent their frustration by attacking them.
@Nimmy – Isn’t making love (as opposed to ‘sex’) another way of showing love for the other person? Then should it be considered ‘wrong’? And isn’t it possible to romantically love more than one person over one’s lifetime?
I find this write-up of Indian sexual mores fascinating when compared to American. In the US such mores tend to be much more subcultural than cultural, but there are certainly double standards like these out there. Rape victims are less likely to be taken seriously if they appear to be promiscuous or just “dress that way” (especially if the defense can demonstrate that in court). It’s certainly easy to objectify women in our society and you won’t have a hard time finding people who blame women for that.
Still, it’s difficult to find people who actually promise that they will commit violence against women for certain behaviors.
Welcome back, Nita! As I expected you have come back with some pithy observations and have begun a discussion which has great social value.
Hope you are pleased with and comfortable in your new home. G
A very thought provoking post this one Nita. Though I’m still undecided on the issue of pre-marital sex, I am however, convinced on the problem of moral policing – It shouldn’t happen, Nobody should dictate what the other person should do.
But coming back to pre-marital sex, I rather think that at a young age, sex and intimacy is not something which kids can handle very easily. Especially in India, where they have been brought up with a set of morals. So I guess, as you said, the landscape is changing but am not sure whether it is such a good thing.
I’d rather prefer a few prostitutes doing their business for the sexually starved ones. But then, even that isn’t a very good idea is it?
You’ve confused me enough…
The statistics are horrifying!! The more we think that pre-marital sex is okay the more we are trying to encourage it. Of course it eventually depends on “mature” men and women as to how they want to live and endure their love life, the trauma associated with a failure when they feel that they have been “used” and have “lost” something is terrifying. It feels good to be “modern” and very “liberal” in every sense but sex just to enjoy it and not for a love should be a “no-no” in a social sense. I can understand the overflowing urges and hormones but at what cost? How comfortable will we be when a Sister or a Daughter at the age of 18 declares that she is no longer a virgin. There is a time for everything under the sky. At that age it’s time to study, building the foundations for a career and not be deviated for the fornications of pleasure.
These are just my views. Keep Blogging!
I second Biju’s thoughts..It is not that making love is wrong,but you don’t know what you are upto during those young ages..Love making is more than just physical intimacy and by having casual sex,I don’t know for sure,but i feel that one is taking the wrong way ahead,unless he/she lives that life till the last breath..
lol,i just realized that i am a culture vulture 🙂 I hate moral policing,but i don’t know how to convey my point well.Mature people can do anything and everythign under the sun-bcoz they are capable of making a choice,but are kids and teenagers that mature or sensible to make the right choice..Maybe i missed it that kids today are growing tooooooo fast…
Nimmy, As much as I believe in freedom I get your point.
At 17-18 kids are immature and have less emotional attachment. I don’t endorse having sex with anyone just for the sake of it.
It is another matter when two well settled individuals get into a live-in relationship.
I don’t understand why the moral vultures cannot see this as a celebration of love, not sex!
And whether the couples are being “immoral” or not is best left to the couples’ own morality and sense of right or wrong
I wouldn’t celebrate so early. I would wait till the statistics for teenage pregnancies, orphaned children from teenage pregnancies and the psychological disorders caused are collected and analyzed.
I believe that men and women in the age group 17-27 are still discovering their life philosophies and attitudes. Not having figured such important issues, I can’t trust men and women engaging in sex to have a true commitment that love demands. I am appalled at the lack of clear cogent answers when even married couples are asked about their reasons for (i) choosing to get married and (ii) choosing to marry that particular person.
I would advise masturbation to relieve sexual tension, full abstinence from sex and would even advise against marriage – it’s just too early to commit; leave alone pre-marital sex.
OH SHIT!! Statistics!!! Damn!!
http://morth.nic.in/writereaddata/sublinkimages/table-86816824487.htm
In the year 2004, 429910-TOTAL NO. OF ROAD ACCIDENTS, 92618-TOTAL NO. OF PERSONS KILLED, 72718-TOTAL NO. OF REGD. MOTOR VEHICLES ( IN THOUSANDS ), 59.12-NO. OF ACCIDENTS PER TEN THOUSAND VEHICLES, 12.74-NO. OF PERSONS KILLED PER TEN THOUSAND VEHICLES…
So what do we do.. Sell that scooter, Trash the car.. Skip the bus and sit at home!!!
No instead, we wear a helmet, remember to tie the seat belt, Give indicators while overtaking or turning!! Isn’t that logical and rational??? 🙂
Umm.. I would definitely like to know your cogent answers as to why you married your partner… As for my opinion… No one is perfect.. We all have a million faults.. So does my partner… When we find each other compatible, not extremely(very personally defined) irritated, accepting each other as is despite a million+million faults, thats when a couple decides to get married….
Rush Me, you have a point and it is logical and rational. Adverse consequence from an action need not mean that curbing the action is the only solution. But right now, I’m not sure we have all the consequences known yet and whether all of them are preventable through education. If only there was a sure way for women to control when they become pregnant….
We know of the unpleasant possibilities. Some of them are prima facie preventable through education although the effectiveness of it is debatable. Some, I’m not so sure. Secondly, is pre-marital sex as necessary as the need to drive? Perhaps the solution may lie in making marriages a more flexible and accessible institution.
Umm.. I would definitely like to know your cogent answers as to why you married your partner…
I’m still single.
When we find each other compatible, not extremely(very personally defined) irritated, accepting each other as is despite a million+million faults, thats when a couple decides to get married….
The evaluation of acceptance of faults is a very good exercise to carry out before arriving at the decision to marry. Most couples that I know haven’t even done that. They just “felt a spark” or “a connection” after a couple of meetings and got married. I’m not saying that thinking through it to anticipate all possible risks of failure is the way. But reasonably foreseeable possibilities of failure need to be examined and discussed. Such a discussion is meaningful provided the individuals themselves are reasonably self-aware.
Hmm… yes obviously!! Once you know all the pros n cons of an action, then only you would be confident enough to go ahead and do it!! Sure..Fair enough…. But would you ridicule someone, if someone else feels more confident than you and has already gone ahead??? That is what I feel is completely wrong!!! 🙂
Basing your thought process on other millions!! You are an individual, your environment, education, experiences are all unique to you…. SO why your actions should be based upon a society who is mere a collection.. Not every one in that society is EQUAL to you!!!
I’m still single.
Oh, Oops! my apologies(Bloody typos!)!!! I meant to ask that would you let someone/me know about the reasons when you DO get married…!!
RushMe
Basing your thought process on other millions!! You are an individual, your environment, education, experiences are all unique to you…. SO why your actions should be based upon a society who is mere a collection.. Not every one in that society is EQUAL to you!!!
I don’t think I’m understanding you here.
But would you ridicule someone, if someone else feels more confident than you and has already gone ahead???
I suppose you’re asking about marriage? Without getting too specific, I’ll just say that I would find it very unnerving to say the least if someone bases their confidence on “a spark” or a “connection”.
I meant to ask that would you let someone/me know about the reasons when you DO get married…!!
Pretty personal to put all the details on a forum like this. I’ll just say that I do have an answer.
Hiya Nita,
Hope you have settled in your new flat / bungalow.
Privacy has been an alien concept out here. One lived in large families or societies in close proximity. “Deviant” behaviour was spotted soon and it became talk of the town. Eveything has been hush hush…
Times have been changing and with more privacy on one hand and parents being pre-occupied, pesky neighbours busy with their own thing, and ofcourse with the ubiquitious internet, sexual liberation is the next big thing to happen in India.
I guess people or Moral Police have too much time at hand to worry about youngsters losing their virginity and the damage it could do to the social fabric.
Just give them a miss, think of them as dysfunctional and move ahead.
It’s good to see you again, Nita! I hope you are enjoying your new home! 🙂
In my opinion, the views you’ve expressed in today’s post are so farsighted they surely must be considered wisdom. Thank you for a refreshing dose of it!
Over the years, I have heard from numerous sources that prostitution in the US was far greater prior to the “sexual revolution” of the 1960s and 70s, which liberalized attitudes towards pre-marital sex. Consequently, it seems very creditable to me that the frequency of visiting commercial sex workers in India has dropped rapidly among those groups that increasingly practice pre-marital sex. Like you, I cannot bring myself to see that as a bad thing.
Second, US polls consistently show that about 90% of today’s married couples had sex with each other before they married. That figure is high enough to suggest that it is now the custom in the US to have sex with your future spouse before marriage. I, for one, think that might be wise, since sexual incompatibility — which premarital sex might do something to prevent — is a known cause of marital discord, dissatisfaction, and even divorce.
Next, I deeply agree with your view that suppressing sexuality — as opposed to responsibly exercising it — can fuel such things as rape and molestation. Moreover, I feel that even when it doesn’t lead to those crimes, it can in practice contribute to an atmosphere of antagonism between the sexes.
Last, I would expect, based on what happened in the US when attitudes towards sex were liberalized — that reactionaries will be unable to stop pre-marital sex from becoming commonplace. However, they may be able to prevent large numbers of people from having access to quality sex education and the information needed to promote responsible sexual practices. That, to some extent, is what they have managed to accomplish in the US — with tragic results. The US now leads the West in sex problems, while European countries that early on promoted comprehensive sex education for their children have a fraction of the problems we do.
Thanks Paul. Sex education is the key, not moralising!
Nita:
Sex-ed without explaining the concept of ‘responsibility’ – which would fall under ‘moralising’ – is what landed the UK into the crapola-pan we are in right now, wrt teenage and pre-teen pregnancies.
You will find the trajectory of the sex-ed debate in the UK very amusing.
If moral policing is one extreme, calling India to jump off the ‘abstinence’ train, I think, is another extreme. I know that abstinence did not work in the west, but it did well in India, atleast till recently. If not, Indian youth would have had a devastating toll due to HIV. Inspite of the fact that Americans are so knowledgable about STDs from a young age, more than half of all Americans will have an STD/STI at some point in their lifetime (The number would be much higher, if cold sore is considered an STD). AIDS is also still rampant and on the rise in the US.
Equipped with the technology of a ‘condom’, do you really believe that India can face the morbidity and disease burden of STDs and AIDS? more burden of orphans and unwanted children? Each year most American women get tested for cervical cancer, how many ‘Educated’ urban women in India have even heard of it? And India already has an alarming rate of cervical cancer. I also don’t think pre-marital sex has anything to do with crime-rates like rapes because I don’t see a connection.
I know things are changing, very fast. But isn’t it our duty to say the right things, not for religious reasons but for a healthy India? Bill Gates said that women should be empowered to prevent AIDS in Africa. We are doing it in India but with the wrong message. I think if nature is given a free hand to take its course, I don’t think human race will even survive. Because we are fighting nature everyday to survive.
Agreed.
There’s a hell and heaven difference between being forced into sex and consenting to go for it on his(/her) own. There is an old saying in Hindi:
“Mia biwi razi, to kya karega kazi”.
If the couples are ready for it, then what the heck! Let them go for it! And it’s all in the mind. Everyone is mature nowadays to understand far-reaching implications. What needs to be ascertained though is whether they have the right kind of education to go with it. That is where, pills and stuffs need to be publicized.
But I am afraid. You know what are the differences between dogs and human beings? What an idiot I am! Of course you know. What I intend to emphasize is: Today a 13 year old guy gets cozy with a 12 year old girl. They end up in the bed and eventually with a baby. What next? Have you thought about it? Think. The key word is “MATURITY” and yes, I believe, upto a certain age children and teenagers should be restricted. If you call that “Moral policing”, I have no issues. Because howsoever smart these kids may be, I am not the one to believe that they know all about pills, condoms, family planning and blah blah blah! And, yes, I agree with Nimmy’s point of view that in a nation like USA, in spite of being liberal, the number of sex related crimes have not decreased. Yes and that’s logical as well. People would start taking it easy. “You do not consent? So I’ll force you! Why? That day, I saw you making love with that idiot in the park. Why not me, sweet heart?”
Are you getting the drift? I am not supporting Ram sena or their acts, but there’s a thin line between right and wrong. And often that gets blurred!
The worst part is that they are all a bunch of hypocrites! Its ok for a man to have pre marital sex because he is just having fun but its completely forbidden for a woman.
Amit, yes that is exactly my point!!
Which makes me want to ask exactly with whom are the men having sex, if not with a woman? A chair? A bicycle? Or other men – which should raise the question of why we treat gay people with such contempt in India?
Nita, Another well written post and relevant in today’s time.
This last para of yours is so true and when will that happen?
“the moral culture vultures will never protest against street molestation because they are more scandalised, shocked and outraged if a woman consents, rather than if she is forced. Can you imagine them dragging out boys and men who are teasing and molesting women from a public bus, dragging them out by the hair, pushing and punching them? I can’t.”
Boy!!! Can it get any more outrageous than this???
“As long as pre-marital sex is restricted to young men and prostitutes they can tolerate it, but not if young women behave the same way as the men.”
Thanks all for replying to the posts. Really appreciate your coming here and giving your views but at this time I cannot reply individually to all comments.
To those who feel that having sex when they are too young is not right, well, I feel that no one has a right to pass judgment on someone and claim that that person is having casual sex, not when the couple is over 18 (for which there are laws, for underage sex). There is no way of knowing what relationship that couple has, whether they are in love etc and what the circumstances are. Sure, there are people who do have casual sex, something that may be unacceptable to you or me, but it is not possible to sit in judgment of another’s relationship. In any case there are many men who have casual sex by going to prostitutes and I think that it is sex without love which is not good (again my personal opinion which I would not impose on anyone else).
You see the crux of the moral debate is about women…whether women should have the same freedom as men, and Vasudev has addressed this and given his reasons why women should be “above” all this. I may not agree with him, but that is really the point. Nimmy says that even men should abstain, but well, it is not exactly happening that way as men accede to “nature” but women are supposed to control themselves. It would indeed would be an ideal world if both men and women waited for the one person in their life, married that person and lived happily ever after, but life doesn’t always work out that way. I was a virgin till I was married and was 26 and by the way so was my husband and he was 26 too! Our is an ideal relationship but I understand completely if someone else is not so lucky!
What is important is that both men and women should get the same opportunities and freedom. The moralisation should apply to both, not just one gender. It is important to remember that the moral police are not stopping underage sex, or couples who are below 18, that is not the point of their drive. They are against even two consenting adults doing it. That is the point of this post, not about two kids doing it. That is another issue which I have discussed in the post on age of consent the link which is given earlier in this comment.
Yeah I agree,I got out of focus.. The point is about women,being expected to behave in a certain pattern,as opposed to the man who has the freedom to do anything and everything he wants.. I have seen people blaming girls for getting into relationships (love affairs) but i never eard anybody blaming a boy..Why is it so,how is the girl alone responsible?Also,when she gets pregnant,the man responsible is rarely blamed or questioned,rather it is the girl who has brought shame to the family-for the boy,they say its all part of men’s life..Hell,just bcoz boys don’t get pregnant and big tummy,does that mean they can do anything..
I am again going put of focus,sorry for that.I have no issues with ADULTS doing whatever they want,bcoz they do it sane mind and it is their mature choice.Again,the irony here is that a person of 17 years and 363 days is not an adult,but after a day,he/she is..
Whatever you do,my point is just -take care not to wreck the ship yourself.I pray that all non virgin boys get married to non virgin girls ALONE ALONE ALONE and vice versa..If you don’t have problem with that,go for it,else don’t..But sickos,the typical mentality is that such men are very much bothered about their future wife being virgin-how fair is that? I have read incidents on husband being suspicious about wife’s morals,and therey abusing her in the shadow of ‘doubt’ whereas,he himslef was an epitome of such a life…
Just my random thoughts…
Bye bye gotta go..
very interesting and informative post
Nita, a bit crude comment here. but, when culture vultures call women promiscuous, Are they not getting the point that you get promiscuous with someone. Gender bias is pretty silly in India. Why can’t Culture Vultures let something so personal be a personal choice.
“Collegians are now more likely to have sex with friends, classmates, neighbours and relatives…”
Relatives?? Is incest a big thing with Indians?
Premarital sex no doubt is still too bold of an topic in Indian context but, we should realize this perception of society has not emerged in a day but the history of India is responsible for it.Nita, your topics are of current context but lack historical perspective.
Our culture was more advanced, rich and open towards sex earlier 12-13 th century when Islamic invasion had not happened. Kamsutra was also written well before Islamic invasion, tantra had developed, which involved accepting sexuality, khajurao temples depicted topless women form.
But, due to Islamic invasion people were more protective of their womenfolk, rajput women would burn themselves alive rather surrender to enemy hence, women were seen as an epitome of pride. Polygamy and inter-family marriage as followed by Islam was never propounded as, women had an equal stature in society and that’s why the famous saying emerged –
“Gods reside where women are worshiped”
But, downfall of women status and limiting her to house and family chores became more dominant after Islamic invasion and was followed to hilt and got more wind later on and thus is an in-born mindset of Indians especially Muslims.
But, looking the stuff now, the rise in premarital sex can be attributed towards the explosion of media and widespread display of women as an object of desire and fulfillment (mallika sherawat, liquor ads,etc.) which has added fuel to fire further also due to lax implementation of laws in this part of world.
Sex has got corrupted in its form as other human needs have over time like hunger, thirst, etc.
These days we do not eat to satiate our hunger but, for the pleasure of our senses as it is more accessible.
Similarly sex is meant for reproduction ( as suggested by Jaggi Vasudev) , as followed by rest of animals and not for pleasure trips as propounded by porn movies, vulgar and cheap literature,songs,films,etc.
We have diluted our capabilities and goals towards pleasure of senses rather the higher goals we are capable to achieve.
On the other side, rise in sexual temperament due to bold atmosphere, peer pressure, or for whatever reason can be contoured by curtailing vulgar depiction, channelizing the youth power, etc. Ways should be thought to counter it else we are already seeing the uglier side in way of DPS scam, rise in sex crimes, etc.
Hence, an level playing field is too tough to reach, considering the fact that west has also not reached anything as we observe 13-15 yrs old becoming parents (and we are banning child marriages), harassment cases have been reported from US president (Bill Clinton) office also.
Hence, according to me sexual inclination is embedded for reproduction and it is upto individual’s uprightness to fulfill it in the rightful manner as per the society norms as one can’t be cut off from society or let their children follow their bold attitude which they had (DPS girl will not let her girl child do it).
How many of the persons commenting on this blog or even the author will approve of premarital sex for their daughter (if she is bold enough to tell you)?? — None and that’s answers it all.
Dear Openlight
LOL..Where?? In India… Hmm.. I’m sure whom so ever has written this would not have been in India.. because women in India are treated the worst of all the bad things considered!! So instead of making a fuss about pre-marital sex, women should be educated so that they can slap their husband when he tries to force sex on her even if she does not wish!!
I live-in with my partner, I am not a virgin and though my parents never talked to me about sex(learnt from my dad’s book on 101 sexual positions….sigh!! chori chori, obviously) , I would make sure I educate my ward (daughter/son) about pros/cons of sex and let her/him decide whats good for him…
A DPS girl exactly know what mistakes she made, so she is the best educator for her daughter… At least, she wont be a hypocrite…
Rise in sex crime is not due to consensual pre-marital affairs… Rape is not a pre-matial affair.. Its all because of MEN who think a girl who has sex is available to all.. WHICH EXACTLY shows the degrading thinking of our society.. Remember, even a prostitute (CSW) decides who she will have sex with.. ITS NOT A FREE-FOR-ALL-COMPETITION!!
Rushme, thanks. I agree that some men think that if a woman is having sex with one man, a man she loves, then she must be some available to all! This is a kind of sick thinking which I have seen! This is because of the poor status of women in Indian society. As you said, women are treated worse than cattle in our country and if there is a country where women are respected, it’s certainly not India. You see, men first put the woman on a pedestal, hold her to some sort of impossible ideal (which is convenient to them and their egos) and if she falters they kick her around. This is the so-called respect that women get in our society!
And as for Openlight’s question about my daughters, they are adults and they will make their own decisions in life. In any case whether I or my daughter has sex or with whom is no one’s business. That is exactly what I have been trying to say, that these things are a personal decisions. I do not point fingers at my neighbor’s daughter and nor will I tolerate anyone making comments about my daughter. It is no one’s business, it is one’s private life.
Nita, kudos to your last comment to Rushme. I have been following all comments. Women in India are expected to uphold traditions – then, it’s no wonder they are expected to uphold chastity. As long as people continue to believe in meaningless and unjust rituals, customs, traditions, etc. women and some men will continue to be subjected to moralizing.
Thanks wishtobeanon. In fact after I got the comments it reminded me of a post that I had written some time ago which was titled:
I will now add it to the main post as part of the Related Reading.
Somewhere down the line HYPOCRISY has made its mark on the Indian gene! And honestly we can go on about the ‘moral police’ and ‘culture vultures’ but even educated Indians speak the same language, but with a posh camouflage – its in our psyche – don’t our elite protest against sex education in schools?
Guess its a bigger problem.
And since as a nation we shag more than the rest of the world – what with millions being born every day!
Is it just a function of too much available and therefore too little acceptance ?
“These days we do not eat to satiate our hunger but, for the pleasure of our senses as it is more accessible.
Similarly sex is meant for reproduction ( as suggested by Jaggi Vasudev) , as followed by rest of animals and not for pleasure trips as propounded by porn movies, vulgar and cheap literature,songs,films,etc.
We have diluted our capabilities and goals towards pleasure of senses rather the higher goals we are capable to achieve.”
The above sentences succintly and amply demonstrate the prudish mentality which is prevalent amongst many Indians and that is the crux of the problem, and the justification that the “culture vultures” use.
Some people are just unable to decouple sex from marriage and reproduction and view it as an act of love; just as they cannot accept that sensual pleasures in moderation and in control do not go against spirituality all the time.
Some spiritual gurus, like the Osho, and the Tibetan Tantric Buddhists, have projected sex as a very high form of spirituality which at its (orgasmic) peak is an union of two souls – and is a highly fulfilling experience.
I think all this prudishness stems from the ancient and archaic viewpoint (which is prevalent in all religions) that denying oneself the pleasures of the flesh and the senses leads to “spritiual” growth and enlightenment.
People who hold this viewpoint are welcome to go to the Himalayas or become priests and practice what they preach, and attain enlightenment (or God) through their painful self-denying efforts.
Unfortunately, many common people, who are brainwashed into this sort of a monastic puritanical attitude, start grappling with their unfulfilled sensual desires and end up highly frustrated, confused and dissatisfied with life while they try to live like an ascetic, as they do not have the requisite mental strength and supplementary wisdom to lead such a life. (This leads to outbreaks like the Mangalore Pub incident.)
You deny yourself pleasure due to your archaic mentality, become miserable, and then become angry at the fact that others are having a good time – hence you try to spoil their party, even though they are not doing anything to spoil your life!! How ironical!
As for me, my parents made it very clear from the very beginning that I was subject to their controls and views regarding girlfriends/ love/ relationships and other aspects of my life as long as I was dependent on them (through school life and till graduation). As soon as I became independent and started earning on my own, I would be the master of my own life and do whatever I wanted to; as long as I did not harm myself or someone else physically or break the law of the land. (Even if I did, I would personally have to face the consequences and be responsible.)
And I agree with Nita, sex is a highly private interaction. However, I also feel that the act of sex is more beautiful and fullfilling if the people involved have a deep emotional bond, a high level of mutual trust and a basic stability in their relationship, which may or may not be exclusively marital.
Great points! Agree with everything you said. Religion does impose high standards for people to follow. But I believe people who’ve had premarital sex should tell it to their prospective partners. Being truthful about your past is a sign of respect for your future wife/husband.
“archaic viewpoint (which is prevalent in all religions) that denying oneself the pleasures of the flesh and the senses leads to spiritual growth”
First and foremost, any religion at least for Hinduism does have this viewpoint but only when individual is old so that individual can act selflessly.
Further, Hinduism also tells, no-attachment work in Geeta and this philosophy lays emphasis on doing the work (and the work should be apt or of dharma) irrespective of any attachment to consequences.
Your thoughts on sex are correct but, how many of persons engaging in premarital sex see the act in this light attached with trust and stability ?? (minuscule)
Sooner or later, this is going to be one of the most commented on posts on this blog! I am here since yesterday but decided only to read things this time.
somehow i am unhappy with the outcome of this debate…that men are more likely (it is ok for them) to have premarital sex than women. logically it reveals to me that for every boy wanting to have sex there is a woman or a girl wanting to give sex. whether it happens amongst friends, relatives, cousins, housemen and maids…is not the question. it is this unnecessary finger pointing towards men that they are free to have sex (only them) and not women! this is entirely untrue! women also equally have had their share of premarital sex as men (even oral and non-penetrative kinds are qualified as sex). as regards women being ostracised, well, the clever ones never get caught!
as regards moral policing, it is not a new phenomena. even as early as the 80s there were moral police. only thing, they never used to come out openly but would stare, sneak and carry a load of lies to your dad. the outcome would be similar for a boy or a girl. dads those days were tough (and so were mums). the stick was always handy and therefore, while today we have social muthaliks those days we had parental muthaliks. both boy and girl would get reprimanded, separated and even confined to bed rooms, with muscular dads and uncles conveying them back and forth to schools/colleges etc.
in my opinion, actual romanticism was more alive then than now. sex was never a topic that entered the minds of two genuinely loving hearts. sex used to be a dirty word, not to be discussed. a man used to be quite protective of his love since he considered her to be above all things vile. on the other hand, sex was always casual and enacted with the one who was just as promiscuous as the other…a momentary pleasure done without any commitments to sail the life boat together.
The last paragraph may be a good reason why most Indians lead such boring lives.
;)…expand please
“for every boy wanting to have sex there is a woman or a girl wanting to give sex”
Maybe this is an unintentional bad choice of words, but this sentence to me is very disturbing. Its core is that sex is something that belongs to the girl, a service that she should give the guy. At the end of the day, this is wrong in my humble opinion. It takes two to tango, and sex is something that should be shared with equal enthusiasm. Not something to give or take.
yes. it takes two to tango and that’s exactly what i meant. the blame lies equally with both and there is no point in isolating only man as the offender.
Indeed, both have equal responsibility, as it should be in all situations where more than one person is involved. Although I do not see where the offence is. For me, sex is something good, it can never be an offence or a crime as long as all parts directly involved give their consent and are within legal age. Other than that, to each their own 🙂
@Nita:
I decided against commenting on this post, and you know why. But I thought I would correct some factual errors. Age of consent in India is 16 (unless it has changed recently), which means (I assume) if both parties involved are either over 16 or both under 16, there is no case for Statutory Rape. SR becomes a possibility if one of the parties is over 16 and one under. Please correct me if my understanding of the laws of SR is incorrect.
The comments about love and maturity are appallingly straitjacketed. They assume maturity comes with age rather than experience. A 20 year old can be more mature than a 50 year old. People like the RSS et al prove my point. There is a reason we reach sexual maturity in our EARLY teens (I don’t know why nita said late teens), and no human law is going to alter the course of evolution.
It is 16 as you said. Yes, my comment was confusing, it implied that the age of consent was 18. Guess I wrote that in a hurry. But technically in India a person is an adult at 18 and at 16 he is considered a minor and needs a guardian, this is what I get from reading the newspapers. This is what I got from this site:
What I interpret from this is that if a parent allows it (marriage of a 16 year old) it’s okay by the law.
@Nita:
You are getting confused again.
“The age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be legally competent of consenting to sexual acts. This should not be confused with the age of majority, age of criminal responsibility, or the marriageable age.”
So, while a girl needs to be 16 for her to be a major as far as sexual consent, she needs to be 18 to get married.
And Parental consent is a gray area in my opinion. How are you to know the parents aren’t forcing the kids to get married, as in cases of pregnancy out of wedlock?
AGE OF CONSENT AROUND THE WORLD
Argentina – 15
Bahamas – 16
Canada – 14
Colombia – male 14, female 12
India – 18
Indonesia – male 19, female 16
Hungary – 14
Peru – male 14, female 12
Tunisia – 20
UK – 16
US – federal age 16
courtesy: bbc news
Vasudev: The point is driven home, but these kind of surveys specially by BBC are a bit too skewed, what I have heard, from folks in BBC.
this might also be relevant:
http://wcd.nic.in/cmr1929.htm
I don’t care about BBC. News media all over the world are getting shoddier with their research.
Please don’t come and give me random statistics without verifying the sources. BBC is not an authority on Indian laws. BBC provides information based on their sources, and if they misinterpret their sources or just plain get it wrong (as in this case) then it is your mistake for falling prey. Point is, BBC is not the first name that comes to mind when I am thinking about the IPC.
Your second link is useless as it pertains to Marriageable ages, which I have already pointed out is not the same as Age of consent.
You have been lawyered.
ok man! no need to act childish. 😉
If being right is childish I’m a foetus 😛
And the you have been lawyered was a joke. I have been watching too many sitcoms…
Nita:
I have not paid much attention to this post and to the comments it has evoked. However, I am curious about your use of the term “culture vulture” in this context. As I understand it, it refers to people who have an excessive, pretentious, and usually shallow interest in whatever classifies as ‘Culture’ (with a capital C) at a given time and place. A lot of this interest is ultimately linked to an obsession with being seen at the ‘right’ places with the ‘right’ kind of people, and uttering the ‘right’ vacuities at cocktail parties. The expression is believed to have evolved from the following lines of Ogden Nash’s poem Free Wheeling [early-1930s]:
There is a vulture
Who circles above
The carcass of culture
If my understanding is correct, then it does not seem to fit in with the discussion in progress here. The culture vultures may be guilty of many sins and crimes, but moral policing is not one of them.
There is something called an original use of a certain word and I do that all the time! You should read the draft of my novel one of these days! 🙂 In this case the carcasses are the victims. In fact I thought the use of this term was rather clever on my part and hope that more people use it. From what I understand using a phrase in another context is to be admired! 🙂
If they had surveyed Saudi Arabia, Iran and other Islamic countries then India wouldn’t be so high up on the list.
It seems to be some kind of systemic attack on Indian males, because there was another article regarding how condoms sold in India were “too big”. The West loves Asian women, it can’t get enough of them. It also loves Indian food, with the UK stealing Curry as its “national dish”. It just hates the Males, it sees them as a threat as Indian men are smarter, better mannered, better educated, and have better jobs.
Having looked on with interest at media portrayals of Indian men in the UK, they usually fall into two categories: comical or sterile. There was this show called Mistresses on BBC1, there was a female Indian who slept around (but only with White men, as with all the other shows this actress, Shelly Conn, has been on). The Indian male in the show was infertile, he was married to a White female who had an affair with a blond haired, blue eyed White man and got pregnant. The infertile Indian agreed to take her back and father the child as his own. News programs are full of Indian women, always with a white co-anchor, while the few Indian male news presenters are always shown on their own. This is social engineering of the highest order.
I’d also love to see the figures for the UK, with its 13 year old dads and highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the developed world. It is always better to throw stones at others, when your house is collapsing.
jk47:
//News programs are full of Indian women, always with a white co-anchor, while the few Indian male news presenters are always shown on their own.//
You are entitled to your opinions and interpretaions, but the sentence I quote above smacks of really cheap innuendo, or the grouse of an easily humiliated South Asian male. And I am not saying anything about its tone being intentionally or unintentionally racist.
I suspect you are located in the UK, and have a generalised view of “The West” derived from your experiences in that one country. I believe that for much of the West (including North America and continental Europe), the term “Asian” in common parlance — especially when it is about women as sex objects — refers to East Asia, i.e. Japan, Korea, Thailand, the Philippines, China etc.
As to the alleged love of the West for Indian food(prepared by the steereotypical Bangla cooks from Sylhet) in general and “curry” (whatever that means) in particular, surely it is largely a British thing. The rest of the West neither knows nor cares.
Finally, when you say “systemic” attack I assume you mean “systematic”.
Vivek S. Khadpekar
//but the sentence I quote above smacks of really cheap innuendo, or the grouse of an easily humiliated South Asian male.//
Straight in with an ad hominem attack, your narrow mindedness assumes that the problems lies with me, rather than addressing any of the issues I raise. I find that cheap and devoid of any insight and intellectual thought, my guess is that you are quite a pompous individual who likes to show off, but there is nothing behind that empty and shallow veneer.
As for humiliation, Sikhs have had their land pillaged, their Guru’s dismissed as low caste Hindu’s, their King kidnapped and converted to Christianity (Dulip Singh), had their land split into two, my Grandparents both laboured away doing the crap jobs that no Brit wanted to do for 30 years. Yet despite all that, I am proud of who I am and who I represent. What you are doing is a classic Carl Jung shadow, you are projecting your insecurities and fears onto me, not so sure of yourself are we?
//I suspect you are located in the UK, and have a generalised view of “The West” derived from your experiences in that one country.//
I was born in the UK, but I have travelled all over Asia and Europe, what do you based your objections to my claims on?
Just watch American films and see how they portray “Asians”, look at the disproportionate number of films where “Asian” women are the romantic interest of a White male, and then look at the other way around. Any film with Lucy Liu, Sandra Oh, Bai Ling, Maggie Q, it is clear to see. Look at US News programs, how many “Asian” women do they have? And how are they presented on TV? These are just the facts, quite hard to swallow I am sure, but facts they are.
And as for Curry, if you bothered to read what I wrote, I was talking about Britain, taking it as their “national dish”. But again, a person with their head in the clouds such as yourself, isn’t going to bother reading what someone else writes.
When you say ‘steereotypical’, did you mean ‘stereotypical’?
Quoting jk47:
“I’d also love to see the figures for the UK, with its 13 year old dads and highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the developed world. It is always better to throw stones at others, when your house is collapsing.”
So all you are doing is speculating based on a couple of isolated incidents that UK is worse than India? Oh wait, India isn’t even close to being a part of the developed world. And your comparisons against Saudi Arabia and the islamic world shows that you are content with the crap that is India (at the moment).
As for ‘throwing stones’, you are doing the same to the british and the west right now. I guess it is too much to ask people to follow their own advice.
As for the show you talk about, it sound like a reality show (what right-minded businessman would base their TV show on a brown family, in the west, is beyond my comprehension). So if the woman chose to sleep around with ‘white men’ how is that BBC’s fault, or even the west? If the indian man decided to get cuckolded, that is his problem and not an indication of Indian men. Indian men are more likely to behead, stone, beat, burn, or bury alive their cheating wives.
———–
“Indian men are smarter, better mannered, better educated, and have better jobs.”
Do you base that on anything other than your skewed, egotistical opinion born out of an inferiority complex?
/So all you are doing is speculating based on a couple of isolated incidents that UK is worse than India?/
You call 28 years of analysis isolated?
/Oh wait, India isn’t even close to being a part of the developed world./
It was before the British arrived, do they teach you about that in India? Read this: https://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/british-rule-in-india-and-nazi-rule-what-is-the-difference/#comment-114520
/And your comparisons against Saudi Arabia and the islamic world shows that you are content with the crap that is India /
I simply want to know more about the survey, it claims to represent “the world”, so why are the Islamic countries ignored? There is a lot of crap in India that I want to see changed, most of all the caste system (caste is a Portuguese word used by Colonialists), and the teaching of the full horror’s of British and Islamic rule in India.
/As for ‘throwing stones’, you are doing the same to the british and the west right now. I guess it is too much to ask people to follow their own advice./
I am simply countering their claims, I am not “throwing” my own stone but picking up theirs and throwing it back at them.
/As for the show you talk about, it sound like a reality show /
It was a drama show on the BBC. There were no “brown” families, the Indian girl was single and slept with only White men. The Indian male was married to a White wife.
/what right-minded businessman would base their TV show on a brown family, in the west, is beyond my comprehension/
Watch Eastenders, I also suggest The Kumars at Number 42.
/So if the woman chose to sleep around with ‘white men’ how is that BBC’s fault, or even the west?/
They make the shows, they write the shows, they decide who ‘sleeps’ with whom. Therefore, if all the shows this Indian actress has been in, she only sleeps with White men, what is that saying about those people making these shows and their agenda?
/Indian men are more likely to behead, stone, beat, burn, or bury alive their cheating wives./
Really? Which part of the British Raj manual did you quote that from? Is that personal experience? Or just a radical generalisation? Perhaps your own personal preference? Did you know that 1/4 women in the UK have suffered some kind of abuse at the hands of their partner? And those are recorded facts!
/Do you base that on anything other than your skewed, egotistical opinion born out of an inferiority complex?/
No, just the facts.
Quoting Paro from Dev.D
I think we should first start sending all our girls to school.. then we can worry about all the DPS’s waiting to happen!!
Its like complaining “Oh! My AC’s temperature in not going below 18* C….” when you don’t even know your house is about to collapse!!! Lets first sort out out basic needs, demands and wants.. Rest all can be taken care of later!!!
Dear jk47
Are you Indian?? I guessed so because it would be an Indian male who would like to test himself with his Penis size!! Why do men think that size of their penis is the only benchmark.. See, you have got a Brain, 2 Hands, 2 Legs and what not.. You can do a lots considerable, profitable, charitable with those… Let the BIG SIZED CONDOMS let be.. They are of no use as no one uses them and fends off the women use iPill!!
Every 13-year old in UK is not a Dad so you just can not make this isolated incident a generalize statement!!
Developed World!!
That sure pinches me!! Lets first make INDIA a Developed Country.. Then we will think about the teenage pregnancies!! Believe me, India still has to go a long way to reach that!! Both Development and teenage pregnancies!!
/Are you Indian?? I guessed so because it would be an Indian male who would like to test himself with his Penis size!! /
Test myself? What does that mean? I am just pointed out the trend of reporting, and the reason why certain stories get prominence.
/Why do men think that size of their penis is the only benchmark./
So who is generalising now? To me a benchmark is how you treat a women, with respect, with honour, women like the small things (no pun intended), remembering important dates, that little attention to detail, a man who understands how it feels to be a women but is still man enough to be masculine. If anything, it is women who are obsessed with penis size!
/Every 13-year old in UK is not a Dad so you just can not make this isolated incident a generalize statement!!/
No, but it is widely reported that the UK has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and abortion in the developed world. I know you might have some romantic ideas about the UK, maybe you are even planning on coming over here to better your life. Let me tell you now, don’t. For a better life, go to Australia, New Zealand or Canada. We had a person visit from India and he said “this place is a dump!”, does that make the UK a fourth world country?
/That sure pinches me!! Lets first make INDIA a Developed Country.. /
Read this:
https://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2006/12/28/british-rule-in-india-and-nazi-rule-what-is-the-difference/#comment-114520
And then this:
http://india_resource.tripod.com/colonial.html
See what the British did to India, how they left it, like a women they had raped. And where India is now, all on their own. It is something to be proud of. Until the British say sorry and return everything they stole, India will not recover fully.
Well, your benchmark is quite high, which I am sorry, most Indian men fail to fulfill… A simple thing like not getting up from ladies seat in a bus, is a far cry from what would you except respect at work place and equality at home…
YOU ARE NOT A WOMEN, and Others I know including me..Believe me, Penis size and wallet size is the least thing we look out for…
YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME MISTER, so you better stop making assumptions… Well, to tell you, I have been to Switzerland (to your horror, with my bf and we are not married…) :D. well the place is terribly/awfully/horribly CLEAN with nothing but cigarette butts on road… NO leaves, NO dust, NO trash, NO plastic, NO tickets NOTHING.. Young kids, barely able to walk, take tiny steps and put the wrapper of chocolate in the nearest trash bin… WOULD YOU TEACH YOUR CHILD THAT?? NO, I’m worried about pre-marital sex… Let civic sense go to hell….
/Well, your benchmark is quite high, which I am sorry, most Indian men fail to fulfill/
Half a billion people all generalised by you, fantastic. And if we are taking samples, 9/10 Western men I meet also fail to meet that benchmark, so your hatred of Indian men must be down to some bad experiences you have personally had.
/YOU ARE NOT A WOMEN, and Others I know including me..Believe me, Penis size and wallet size is the least thing we look out for…/
So you can judge men without being a man, making sweeping assumptions and generalisations, but if I dare suggest that women are motivated by penis size and money, I am automatically wrong! Where is the equality that you speak so highly of? Does it apply to women only?
/YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME MISTER, so you better stop making assumptions… /
Well if I get an angry response like that it means I am touching a nerve, or getting close to the truth.
/Well, to tell you, I have been to Switzerland (to your horror, with my bf and we are not married…)/
I’ve been all over Europe and Asia with my unmarried partner, what is your point?
/well the place is terribly/awfully/horribly CLEAN with nothing but cigarette butts on road… NO leaves, NO dust, NO trash, NO plastic, NO tickets NOTHING.. Young kids, barely able to walk, take tiny steps and put the wrapper of chocolate in the nearest trash bin…/
I suggest you make your next trip to the UK, and you will see the exact opposite of everything you describe. Switzerland is one of the best places in Europe, if not the world.
/WOULD YOU TEACH YOUR CHILD THAT??/
I have no plans to have any Children.
/NO, I’m worried about pre-marital sex… Let civic sense go to hell…. /
The perfect product of Western liberalism, be damned with everyone else and do whatever you feel like. And boast about what you are doing, so that the rest of society can accept it, it isn’t enough that you do these things, you want peoples approval and a change in their attitude to accept that behaviour as the norm. Because deep down your anger only hides the fact that you think it is wrong. Ah guilt….
Umm..Breaking up sentences and deducing a completely different meaning is what I expected… Just missed the complete point!! You just don’t see the entire picture… Do You??
When I asked you, would you teach your child to throw waste in dustbin: you reply, I dont plan to have children!! Thats what I would call a “Koop-Mandhook” aka frog in the well…Who would just look at the walls and think, oh this is my world and nothing beyond….!!
My question was about what is important for being a better citizen!!
Oh, and about Guilt…Had I been guilty, I would not have been replying to comments, I don’t agree with… Guilt makes you keep shut, not open out!! And yes I am angry, just because when people leave behind rationality and logic and run after meaning less ideologies which have no relevance now, and call them selves educated…
[Believe me, wallet size is the least thing we look out for…]
liar! 🙂
about everything else, i agree! indians need to go a long way in manners, mannerisms and hygiene. why? it was only the other day when at dadar station i saw a guy blowing his sputum onto the platform and as if not enough, he gargled, cackled, choked on his own phlegm and witha loud ‘pffffft’ spurt out the whole thing on the platform floor as if it was some ‘divya-prasadam’ that he was offering to the ignoramus around him. height of ‘indian’ democracy!
talking about divya-prasadams and ignoramus, what can we expect when half of our leaders prefer to be stamped and kicked on the heads by semi-nude, ash strewn sadhoos who then go on to proclaim what our foreign policies should be?
Another one!!
Oh! I am loving this!! 😀
rush.Me
from what you say, the new order of romaticism seems to be quite attractive and worth a try…;)
OK… you are retrospectively inspecting the truths of those days with the comparatively modern law aided facts of today!
for an example: you cannot go back a century or so and tell the inventors of sati that it was all bad for women to jump into the pyre to escape the islamic invasive egomaniacal malehood act because today we are quite broadminded and willing to experiment? those women were offered the chance to experiment. they chose to save their honor…there you are! truth 1 about the clash of civilisations.
is dowry vile?
has it disappeared from the scene? dunno! dowries were of all kinds…the take-it-i-can-afford-alms kind of show-off dowries and the i-demand-price-for-my-son’s-head kinds were the most popular. in some societies dowry was the parting share money given to the lady (patriarchial society). in mine the men got nothing as their share…everything went to the woman(one’s sisters)…matriarchial. only yesterday i was reading about the egyptian civisation and was surprised to find that men paid dowries to women! therefore, dowry is a system in existence from time immemorial. what pinches is the mis-match between affordability and expectation of the unaffordables leading to false promises and complications. besides, unlike in today’s india where the concept of dependant parents is disappearing from the top 5%, in the earlier days they were very much there. one family would have 5 or 10 children and dowry was a means of income to give away the balance girls. today you have education and good jobs as the weapons to beat mothers/fathers-in-law with and to keep husband on a leash. isn’t that the truth?
lack of education:
many of the reasons are imaginable (c’mon…our affluence is less than 15 yrs old!). lack of money, large families, lack of schools, traditional habits…all worked against the woman. so parents struggled hard to give the sons good education( so that they could profit from selling them off at premium). in the proces the women got ignored. simple mathematical calculation based on profit and loss statements. invest in profitable ventures was the mantra perhaps.
go change all that na! no one can stop you now since you have the job/the independance/the education! 🙂
History is gone now and I really can’t do much to change it… It was their choice to commit sati and I would not be a judge of whats right and wrong… May be it suited them.. But is it necessary now??
And, We, NOT wanting to change, will follow it like buffons with no brains… Today, mostly, girls and boys both are employed, sharing equal responsibility for the household..then what is use of dowry. Only to satisfy your frailing ego??
For Men like you, today, the educated and independent women seem like a threat because they will NOT commit sati to save their honour… They will make you commit one… 😀
Don’t you think that its is the time to give the women a break from the years of torture and pain, starting from Islamic Invasion, Dowry Hungry In-Laws and Sex-Hungry Husband????
Fuck-Mates…okay.. time to plan a Bangalore trip.. I don’t find anything offensive as it would be used amongst their friends circle and not in front of anyone who would get offend by it….
Marriage is a part of life, NOT LIFE, so if I do not find myself compatible with a person CHOSEN BY MY PARENTS, I would prefer a divorce rather than suffer silently like its has been happening since ages….!!
[then what is use of dowry. Only to satisfy your frailing ego??]
so you don’t want any share of your property? good for you! anyway i never took any dowry myself.
[For Men like you, today, the educated and independent women seem like a threat because they will NOT commit sati to save their honour… They will make you commit one…]
and why should they seem like so much of a threat to me? there are quite a few who work under me. it will take a lot of time for them to catch-up. 🙂
[Don’t you think that its is the time to give the women a break from the years of torture and pain, starting from Islamic Invasion,]
…what you say reminds me of the 3000 yr old deprivation accusations that some are loading onto current hindus
[Dowry Hungry In-Laws ]
you have already made your choice to elope. so why bother?
[and Sex-Hungry Husband????]
dunno how you qualify that…it is quite a relative thing. i know some who are marathonians in the said act and emerge beaming and love-struck. you don’t plan to play a long innings with this husband thing, do you? 😉
‘F…mates’…well…the party is almost over and bad time to visit Bangalore unless you wanna get kicked by the hoodlums.
[if I do not find myself compatible with a person CHOSEN BY MY PARENTS]
…hey! i thought you were that brave person heading with Harry to the nearest sign-in shack? make-up your mind on this one. 😉
well…nice reading all that. you are a spirited person indeed. do not waste all that anger and energy!
Its a sad thing to know that you didn’t get much of what I meant!!
//i never took any dowry myself. //
Congrats, there are few left like you!! 🙂
//it will take a lot of time for them to catch-up.//
Hmm.. With attitude like yours, crime against women will never reduce, and the current sex ratio will soon reach 400/1000 from 768/1000….
//some are loading onto current hindus//
Can’t even comment, Its so disgusting!!
//you have already made your choice//
LOL… I got an opportunity, I am lucky.. Most women are not!! I believe in independence, But not only for me, for every women in this country.. I am not selfish (if that what you thought by being individualistic)..
//play a long innings with this husband thing, do you?//
My bf doesn’t initiate sex, if I am tired or not feeling well… same vice versa.. Unfortunately.. This is not the case of many women in India.. Mostly its about men and his satisfaction and that is called Martial Rape..(If you know!!)
//with Harry to the nearest sign-in shack?//
LOL… Why can’t men decipher hidden meaning… Or rather “IF”.. It’s not about me, personally.. It is the state of women, who got married by their parent’s choice and now are suffering for the same…
I wish India doesn’t go back to age of bullock carts and every thing ancient!!
[//it will take a lot of time for them to catch-up.//
Hmm.. With attitude like yours, crime against women will never reduce, and the current sex ratio will soon reach 400/1000 from 768/1000….]
this is a matter of individual ability and capability. there are no charities in an organisation. free meals…yes but no free promotions to higher responsibilities unless proven by self acquired capabilites. hard work is required for that.
true we lead the youngsters (man or woman), we give good training to the trainees but ultimately no one can make a horse drink. water. so our job is to lead them in the right path. man or woman…the incumbent must put in sufficient years of experience of handling assignments before one can qualify him/her to be capable of individually leading large teams.
there is no crime against women here and i do not understand how you qualify me as one with a criminal attitude? think before you pass blanket opinions.
You are wasting your breath on this one. Some people just can’t read between the lines.
hey! what i said was before marriage (the courting period)…not after marriage.
the question of divorce does not happen unless you are married (oh! but i forgot! this is an india of live-in relationships and break-ups and divorces are indicative of illegal relationships)…btw…at Bangalore they introduce friends as ‘F***-mates)…now have you heard that? Ha! Ha! quite an interesting scenario…
@ruSh.Me
LOL..Where?? In India… Hmm.. I’m sure whom so ever has written this would not have been in India.. because women in India are treated the worst of all the bad things considered!! So instead of making a fuss about pre-marital sex, women should be educated so that they can slap their husband when he tries to force sex on her even if she does not wish!!
Read through the comment clearly, saying is in Hindu scriptures and you being ‘modern’ and ‘educated’ Indian (hopefully) is not even aware of it?? (or may be not aware of Hinduism).
What we are talking subtly is about sexual freedom of females in India in general rather specific topic of premarital sex. What I pointed out, sexual freedom was present and prevalent in ancient India, but due to Islamic and British rule, their influence had changed the outlook and this outlook is still prevalent in all corners of the world not just in India (where it is more profound in religion, traditions,etc.).
I am not telling anyone on how or when / why about sex or about children. If you want to educate your ward on the subject, go forward and do it. My point of view is why does not society lowers the age of marriage so that such norms are also given an approval from society and the guilt factor is removed.
Rest this discussion is only for the norms followed by the urban middle class as rest of society is not concerned, upper class they can afford to jump over any norms and for lower class their financial struggle is compensated through this.
Oh! Did I mention that I am an atheist?? 😀
So wherever it is written I don’t care!! Even if its written in “Traditional Scriptures”, do the followers of Hinduism follow this too?? Or just they believe in going to a temple and fold hands and come back?? Ya sure, Temple of hypocrisy it is!!
Let me ask you question. Would you marry your ward at the age of 14 if the rule says so?? Only for the sake of society??
That’s where the problem lies… We will do this because society has said so.. I will have sex because all my friends are having it.. I will take dowry because my great-grandfather took it too.. I will take bribe because everyone else is… Don’t we have our own brain to make a decision for ourselves??
Its not about Urban Middle v/s Lower Class… Sensitivity and respect for the other gender does not require me to be born to be silver spoon in my mouth!! Women in every class have to face trouble, the only point to differ is where they are educated (easier to achieve in upper class) they can fight it… Rest unfortunate, can’t!!
That’s where the problem lies… We will do this because society has said so.. I will have sex because all my friends are having it.. I will take dowry because my great-grandfather took it too.. I will take bribe because everyone else is… “Don’t we have our own brain to make a decision for ourselves??”
Spot on ruSh.Me!! You nailed it.
That’s why I personally value individualism, and individual critical thinkling and independent decision making using logic and reason, so much. The vital education we need to give children (especially in India, nowadays) is to enable them to use their brains, think, logically analyze things and make their own decisions based on reason.
It is given in scriptures and it is upright to treat women as godly even if you are thinking with your ‘logical’ and ‘individualistic analysis’ but, the problem is I can not bang my head to a ‘wall of self-confessed junkie’.
What you are talking of education and freedom, it did existed in Indian society earlier and in tune with female being the representation of energy, females had been bestowed with an level above humanly form (Gods) and you will also agree in what so ever society/family/home women folk have been respected, they have progressed and prospered.Education levels had decreased to bottom after Islamic invasion.
Rest what society follows, is also thought for humans in that society and by humans no ET are present. If traditions are present, there is other side to it, but your ‘individualistic’ (self-focused and narrow) mind will not comprehend.
Why is it so that even after so much scientific progress, yoga and Ayurveda (rules written for society and in scriptures) is followed now. Similarly what society puts forward has also some positive side to it and instead of try to see the other side also.
I do agree that traditions should undergo change with respect to time and Hinduism has been the flexible religion in this respect for allowing itself to be molded according to times (Abolition of sati, arya samaj) such upheavals and changes are hard to find in any religion in whole world (even in other religions of India). Hence, if I do not go to temple or practice ritual, I am still an Hindu and proud to be so, as i follow the spirit of Hinduism which is universal and is prevalent and pervades world and not bounded by any single age old book replete with violence and sexual repression.Further, there is no strict instruction to follow a book, no central character or figure to follow, what ever theory / principle / rule given in any text or godly figure syncs with your thinking, follow it, Hindu religion is open in all manner of thoughts and action.
The problem centers to the point of acceptance of society as an whole, so according to me even providing education will not suffice, educated and well off girls are opting for prostitution (for fun and money), increased teenage pregnancies are more in urban cities. Economic freedom can shield female/male against any repression but, change is taking place but it will be at its own pace and will continue in future.
It comes back to individual to stand up against repression irrespective of being educated or not but, being free also has responsibilities which we are not aware of or are not interested to take up.
Since now I have been declared “junkie” and “narrow minded & self focused” and “not-yet-declared-prostitute” for “not being a virgin”, “following safe sex” and “holding & acting upon individual reasoning”..let me just continue, shamelessly….. 😀
Blaming everything and anything on Muslim Invasion is a neat way to escape your own responsibilities… Like we always do in the case of our not-so-developed-state by throwing it on our over-population and wiping our hands clean of it…
I am not against society, I like my family, relatives, I attend all the marriage functions (Though, I’m planning a court marriage for my own!!)… Can you tell me what makes me and you different??
You HAVE the right to religion, so you follow one.. I also HAVE a right to religion, I choose to follow none… Does that make me a bad citizen??
educated and well off girls are opting for prostitution (for fun and money)
Well, here is something for you…
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FSNB0G7f4CsC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70
“In some instances, teenagers have been turned into prostitutes by their own parents and family members.. Only a minority juvenile female prostitutes are into this business for themselves (as opposed to majority of male prostitutes who generally are independent operators)”
HAHAHAHA!!! Now you would say, that’s a
boy’s freedom and independence, right??? 🙂
Also..
“Having sex with children provides a greater sexual thrill to many men,” observed the secretory of Indian Health Organization.(Oops, how dare he let out our secret, traitor!!) “They find it more titillating and gives them added sense of power..”
Disgusting!! Its men who make women prostitute for their own pleasure and then talk about religion..
These are just figures for the U.S. and world.. Indian girls are still the coy one so we have not yet reached a state to compete with the U.S…
And with your mode of thinking, NO ONE will ever learn to take up responsibility.. This is why education is a MUST, so that young people learn to be responsible for their own actions.. All our parents give us a car/scooter/cycle to drive; Do they ever give us traffic rules book???
Why are you so eager to take the Rights and shy away from Responsibilities?? Why are we so selfish?? Why do we take out religious/wedding processions forget all about the vehicular/pedestrian traffic?? Why do we kick a weaker person, only when we know he can’t fight back!!
dunno if this adds any value but it is definitely hilarious (depends…)
recently a woman swimmer mate of mine declared that she wasn’t a virgin. so i asked her at what age did she lose her virginity and how?
she replied…before she started swimming she was into athletics and horse riding and that’s how she lost hers!!!
hmmm! didn’t i tell you that clever women never get caught? 🙂
I would call that Hypocrisy or a Lie!! (If she is not telling the truth about loosing her virginity!!)
I don’t see anything clever about it.. Just a difference of perception!! 😀
Since now I have been declared “junkie” and “narrow minded & self focused” and “not-yet-declared-prostitute” for “not being a virgin”, “following safe sex” and “holding & acting upon individual reasoning”..let me just continue, shamelessly…..
Is this hilarious or what? 🙂 The comments keep getting better and better, immense amounts of entertainment. Keep it up…for our sakes!
it takes all sorts of …..to laugh at the wrong jokes!
At outset wishes for your upcoming married life.
-Regarding Muslim invasion, past has been like that, I can not change it. Present form of society / individual is based on his past, he can change only his present for better tomorrow.
-Following a religion or not, is not citizen precondition but, your thumping for your daring actions and views on sex,sexuality and religion which are against the so-called ‘old’ norms of society just add to your being an rebellion hell bent for individual identity to honker on others to imitate and being superior.
-“In some instances, teenagers have been turned into prostitutes by their own parents and family members.. Only a minority juvenile female prostitutes are into this business for themselves (as opposed to majority of male prostitutes who generally are independent operators)
HAHAHAHA!!! Now you would say, that’s a
boy’s freedom and independence, right???” —
Please not “some instance”. Further, in case of male prostitutes there is no ‘real’ independence but ‘independence’ from operators. Hence, your view is totally distorted and focuses in free run for male prostitutes against females but, to utter dismay to your ‘analytical’ mind, reality is that both are bounded due to economic status and no crackdown and support by law,political system and society as whole (though few NGO / individuals are working for their upliftment).
-“Its men who make women prostitute for their own pleasure and then talk about religion..” —
What about gigolos, male prostitutes, male stripper are they ET’s creation or for ET’s pleasure ??
– “Indian girls are still the coy ” —
Really, doubts are coming to fore, increase in wife related violence towards husband are increasing. Wife and their family insist on different home for their girl and not with boy’s family ?? You talk of equality but, dowry laws favor female.
– “Do they ever give us traffic rules book???” — They had not read for themselves.Problem traces roots to corruption and lax in implementation of rules.
– “Why do we kick a weaker person, only when we know he can’t fight back!!” —
I think its due to fact of individual’s sensitivity of other’s weakness, either you take advantage (beat) of it or leave it.
Also individual thinking is suitable in individual context as it is biased towards the mindset of individual and any society wide change needs collective thinking and initiative.
@openlight:
Please shed some light as to what you are basing your claims on, about the social and intellectual position of women in a pre-invasion Hindu society.
And before I conclude, I choose to point out that the “open hinduism” you are so proud of, is almost non-existent in modern India where it has assumed the hue of the religions you chastise.
in context of what you said above and since i believe govts play a major role in fashioning the country’s path…
predictably the next pm is mayavati.
where do you see india in such a scenario, religionwise, culture-vulturewise, moral policing wise?
I don’t know enough about Mayawati to make any comment.
I know she isn’t who I want leading the country, on a more general footing.
As for hitting me in the head, I’d dare you to try. It is all very easy for someone behind a computer to act “macho”.
– Doesn’t historic kamasutra, khajurao temples, shikhandi in mahabarata, tantra and its sexual inclination points to openness towards sexuality.
Mentioning of Shlokas in praise of women also, point to social and intellectual position of women. Accepting women form as godly also attribute to it.
– There is no ‘open / closed Hinduism’. Hinduism is more than a religion, as it has no central figure/book to follow. Instructions or guidelines in form of Shastras are given for ultimate realization of god. Rest it is individual’s mindset which open/close, they basis of Hinduism is welfare of all, it does distinguishes between follower / non-follower. It just lays its principle and guidelines to follow.
TDD…even though I genuinely feel like whacking you one on your head ( 🙂 ), I cannot help myself from agreeing with you on your above statement that India is losing out on values of Hinduism and taking on the hue of those religions which we would like to chastise. Dot on!
Due to religious reasons, I cannot comment on this post, since its about “Sex”, else I would have commented.
Sorry. 😦
Oh..! Holy…
I just commented….., my religion !
There are a lot of concepts which are not clear even for fully mature women and men. But you need to take full responsibility for whatever you do. And what happens after that. One can always have fun driving a car. But insisting that they will drive the car after drinking alcohol in high speeds is not allowed by the law. For good reasons. It is simple to see the logic there. In certain other issues (Including this one) the logic is not as simple as that. But it is quite tough to actually pass a judgment on a topic like pre-marital sex like you just did and justifying that citing freedom of equality! I don’t do something just because it is possible or I am free to do it. Why does a society respect a man/woman when they come to know that they have not indulged in pre/post marital sex even though they might have had the freedom to do so? Why does a society respect a person who spends more time reading a good book instead of drinking alcohol, even though he/she might have had the freedom to do either? It is society’s job to come to a minimum consensus on such issues. And as long as the majority of them feel that something is wrong, it is wrong. The law is based on such a vague concept, whether individuals like it or not. And I don’t see that as ‘wrong’ just because some moral police did something. I would rather base judgments irrespective of the action of the moral police.
And everyone knows that the moral police was wrong. The question should have been – Why is the actual police slow in taking actions against them?
Destination Infinity
OUR GREAT INDIAN CULTURE :
http://blog.blanknoise.org/2009/02/eported-in-hindu.html
🙂
life is getting tougher, isn’t it? the difficult thing to know today is what is political and what is not? sometimes the opposition play dirty games to malign the ruling.
This is quite shocking….What’s happening to Bangalore and India? I wonder if these men wear shirt and pants – are they Indian outfits? Why don’t they start targeting men who wear western outfits too? It’s really sad – politics and narrow- mindedness is ruining India.
Sorry about the generalization in my last comment. It’s just that you keep hearing news like these more often, it makes you want to scream on the internet.
phew long post and longer comments..
nice to read so many people discussing ..
indians do it at 22 ..
that actually surprises me .. i thought it would be even more than that
True man! I have known people who are 30 single and virgins.. .lol
I wish they dont have any problems when they get married this late (pun intended). Considering the pollution and the quality of food I believe that indian men suffer from unsatisfied sex life when they married after 30! Its only an assumption hope it wont be true!
Oh!! For once, Lets hear what a girl, who has faced it (and WHO NEVER ASKS FOR IT) has to say..
http://thepinkchaddicampaign.blogspot.com/2009/02/details-of-attacks.html
I feel when a country makes its citizens feel like above, its a matter of shame for others!!!
Rush Me, thanks for sharing. This has rattled me deeply. These goons are not trying to preserve tradition or morality. They are simply trying to make sure that male chauvinism prevails. I’m scared for my female friends and relatives.
nita…i think the 10 deep reply to individuals is creating confusion as one has to go and seek replies. after reading a reply posted on 3rd march 2009 one sees below a post of 27th march 2007! that creates the confusion. dunno what others think.
@ reshmi
read those incidents. it is not clear what prompted the attacks on these women. there is a larger political game plan and it is not isolated to muthalik. looks like ram sene is being made the convenient goose by some clever guys who would like to demonstrate how radical the hindus are! that way the designs of vested western forces and their indian chamchas can be achieved if the ruling bjp govt falls. someone else is waiting for a pat on the head and a few private oscars!
Dear Vasudev :
No one gives a damn to politicians…!! Its a NEAT way to escape blame!! Political or not, the disrespect of women for simply being existent shows a primitive thinking!! I don’t care, whether the person attacking was Hindu or Muslim or of whatever religion… And I would certainly not inquire about the religion of person attacking me, before running for my life… The way you “defend” those goons, shows that you regard the value of Politics and Religion MUCH MUCH AHEAD to a fellow person(of another gender)…!!
You REALLY NEED TO KNOW the reason for the attack!!!????????
😦
hmmm!
yes…i would like to know the reasons for the attack as that would make the perspective clearer rather than work on assumptions.
disrespect to women you say? i am not seeing all women under attack. so why select and attack?
have you considered the aspects of previous animosity/personal agenda etc? under a guise people can do anything.
defend? you are assuming under an emotional charge. relax and think. if you pass-over the actual agenda and think like what the goons want you to think then you have again walked into their trap! i say, your pink chaddi mates really require some good men to advice them on how men think!
you are welcome to join, if you really want us to know what those goons want from us.. because I terribly fail to understand!!!
Vasu
They are attacking women in western outfits because they would never get girls like that.. lloll
Also that most of them must be married to a typical indian women who dresses in a traditinal saree and thinks that husband is living god… hahahaha So they might be disappointed with their way of living and sad for not having those kind of women in their life. Out of frustration they attack when they see women in jeans/T’s speaking in english.. lol
//i would like to know the reasons for the attack//
So would we… Ask those goons and make sure to let me know!
//so why select and attack? //
Not all Indian women wear jeans, drive a car, smoke, work outside home, drink, go to a pub, have male friends…. Who does, are the targets.. I am sorry if you fail to see, this difference which is merely a result of being independent and having an individual opinion.. Now I am sorry, if men don’t want women to have individual opinion!!!
//how men think!//
LOL…this is how men think… http://1st-ray-of-the-sun.blogspot.com/2009/01/indian-men-mentality.html
your blogspot (linked) doesn’t leave much of a man. this is an ‘attilla’ world that you people are creating.
ask those goons?
you might, at that! at least one can know what irritates them.
[Not all Indian women wear jeans, drive a car, smoke, work outside home, drink, go to a pub, have male friends…. Who does, are the targets.. I am sorry if you fail to see, this difference which is merely a result of being independent and having an individual opinion.. Now I am sorry, if men don’t want women to have individual opinion!!!]
has been there always, especially in a place like bangalore. something is deeper than all that. i would even venture thus far to say: ‘the attackers are targeting north indians or non-kannadigas’… somehow the questions in kannada and the surprise when replied to in kannada gives me such a feeling.
@Vasudev:
Your active need to defend these “people” is starting to make me sick. Are you telling me there are no MALE “non-kannadigas”? Your defense is see-through like the joke that is Hinduism.
TDD…
you are the lawyer…so use your lawer brains to come out with something more brilliant than the above.
you say hinduism is a joke. i do not think it is a joke. see?
No I don’t see. Are all your arguments based on useless, “see” comments?
And a suitable reason has already been provided. Indian men feel threatened by successful women. That is a fact that I have seen repeat itself over and over again in incidents involving my friends, family and acquaintances. I consider that to be reflective of India as a majority.
P.S. I am not a lawyer. Lawyered is a slang phrase used when an argument has been effectively rebutted by impeccable logic. I extend its use for when people don’t check their facts either.
I would have added lawyered to my last comment, but I realized, with the frequency of your posts, and the amount of time you take to research your “facts”, it would seem like I was grossly over-using the phrase.
you are getting into a slang match. you are more than welcome to try it with me at vasudevan_n2001@yahoo.com. i have a yahoo messenger. i welcome you to dare match your wits with me on an instant basis. why spoil nita’s space here?
i do not need to do any research as my own brain can give me logic based clues. i don’t have to depend on the ideas and ‘facts’ of some rookie reporters and researchers. maybe you need them. don’t force it down my throat.
i respect nita’s space and hence…i would welcome you to reply to me on the above email id…
take care puppy!
there could be ‘n’ number of reasons why such incidents are happening. it is not always possible to give verified and researched data as proof. sometimes one will just have to make some wild guesses. at times what you guessed might turn out to be right. it does not hurt to be prepared for the worst even if what you thought did not turn out to be such an earth-shaker.
1) an unknown commodity suddenly becomes famous overnight based on a so-called hindutva agenda in mangalore. is he for real or is he a creation?
for an answer one has to look at the chrisitan agenda for india. it is well known that they had imported around 50000 workers to convert hindus in india through truth/lie/coercion/trickery. this was known as the ‘joshua plan’ which had its initial eyes on the kumbh mela.
act 1): spread lies about hinduism and convert the gullible by giving them cash/booze/gems and a lot of false promises.
act 2): create a hatred towards hinduism within young hindus by creating muthaliks and making them do things which hitherto hinduism never did. the result is the same as how a child would revolt against a lenient dad who now wants to turn a disciplinarian! some hindus would simply hate hinduism and either convert to more free religions (read christianity) or become athiests.
act 3): elections round the corner: ruling party bjp. how to create hatred towards the majority within the majority. rather, how not to allow votes for bjp…the hate votes would go to the congress (read vatican party!) again the end result of women bashing in the guise of saffron…modern women and their male friends would swear together…never to vote for the bjp which usurps their freedom! end result: bad name: hinduism!
act 4): some hindutva fool by name muthalik does a sincere and stupid act of actually trying to get our women back into hindu culture. means? bad action!
end result: he gets chaddis and vows to make women pay for it.
like a guy who openly declares he would murder x, y & z, the fool only declares. the clever bystanders finish off the agenda. blame the fool! act loser? hinduism!
act 5): let’s say muthalik sincerely wants to correct things and is bashful about it. now come the clever bystanders (read christians and muslims). they encourage the fool by word and deed and tell him…let your campaign grow. we always wanted to do the same thing but you know how difficult it would be for us in a hindu majority country? if you hindus do it no one would say anything etc…the fool falls into the trap and goes about touting saffron and goes about bashing the weaker ones (the women). result?…failure: hinduism. successful? christianity/islam???
act 6): the larger plot: from all the media to the current political party in the centre, all have sponsors from washington to jeddah. destabilising india can be as much a profitable co-agenda as was making money out of debasing india through slumdogs. here many can fall prey for dollars or dinars, irrespective of religion. act ends: india divided!
i can go on and on…without any research. i have these few to place before the group to think and ponder. if not…at least…smile and enjoy the joke. :);) …but…it is not a joke for me and i am pretty serious.
oh! and why isolate the women? simple! hit the minority and the majority will object! (every man worth his salt will take-up cudgels to save the might of the women…ok…ok…men aren’t in your current favour!)
Vasudev are you normal? You conspiracy theory makes me laugh. Hindus are converting into other religions because we yall know that the disparity among the hindus due to caste system or whatever makes them feel inferior within their own community. They dont want to take shit from their fellow hindus and wanted to convert to Islam/Christianity and whats wrong with that? You are like one of those people who talk great about hinduism and still believe in practices like sati and untouchability. Your theory doesnt sound anything but hypocrisy .. lol
Do you have any evidence for your retarded conspiracy theory? I will not dignify you with a debate unless you have even plausible evidence. This is your theory and I don’t see why I should even consider it as an option. The RSS and its wings were not set up by the “christian” fundamentalists. While I don’t like christians either, or muslims, or any religion for that matter, I don’t pass the buck from one to the other either.
And yes, your conspiracy theory is a joke.
P.S. Where is this so called “saving the might of women” you talk of? I have seen an exponential increase in attacks, publicly, in crowded areas and people have watched idly. Your theories somehow don’t hold up to what is evident. The fact is the majority of hindus think like muthalik; the difference being Muthalik isn’t scared of the law.
I am actually getting sick of this “debate”, since you feel evidence is “fine if you have it” and I think it is essential. So, unless you have evidence, don’t expect me to give your theories any credence.
@ above…
my! you do have great expectations, don’t you? whoever or wherever did i say that i wanted you to reply? i have long since stopped addressing to you. did i write the above by pressing ‘reply’ to your own gibberish? as if you expect me to pacify you. high hopes puppy. to you my reply is clear…and if you have forgotten due to lack of instant references please look above and there you would find what you may do!
the above was for the consumption of those other bloggers here who are willing to give their own brains some excercise w/o wasting time on false theories/reports/facts/evidences…what evidence? the cases i stated above could be plausible scenarios. could be…could not be. debatable with an open mind!
Great article nita..
its true that people are having premarital sex at ever younger now.. & that means education, parenting, school environment needs to adapt to it… i can’t imagine a sarkari school master being able to deal with it, let alone those culture vultures..so, we are entering interesting times.
Having said that, premarital sex or sex at younger ages is surely a trend and people need to acknowledge it. I m not sure if this has to be celebrated in any manner. I think finnish kids are known to be late for starting their sexual lives, abstinence does not seem to be a problem for them. In US, most kids do sex at the age of 13, just to look cool and be accepted as part of a friend circle… I hope Indians don’t hop on to same thoughts. Of course its a personal decision to have it or not, and at what age, but its for parents to help the kids to understand the implications of a”me-too” mentality.
In US elections, there was a long debate between Obama and McCain over abstinence and abortion, just wondering if we are to see the same in India in coming years? i am guessing, we will neither have abstience nor abortion, we will have population explosion.. ha ha
That the moral police are more shocked if a woman consents than is she is forced, is so depressing to contemplate. I had never thought about it in such a direct way. Thank goodness that kind of attitude is relatively rare in Britain.
I am an indian man from chennai. Until I married at 34 I did not have sex with any woman. Not even had an opportunity to talk face to face with a woman except close relatives. You can imagine the repressed feelings. I could manage my repression and urges but many men cannot – they are not designed to avoid sex for a long period. In old times men used to get married at 21 or 22 (career not so important) ; but now with career choices men get married later and later in life and it is a problem how they can suppress sex so long. Indian women also on the other hand seem to hate sex and even after marriage (after waiting a long time) there is a distinct possibility of getting a sex hating wife.
You can always divorce a sex hating wife and get married to a hot girl even after you turn 40. Because men look good even at 40 whereas women can only attract men if they are under the age of 30 (well there are few exceptions though)
Whats wrong with premarital sex? At least now indian men are getting the opportunity to get laid with multiple partners before marriage, thanks to the media and movies for making women to come out of kitchens. These days indian women are more accessible like you can always hook up with a girl at college/work and end up having sex with her and need not necessarily marry her just for having a sexual relationship. I believe its the older generation who never had that opportunity to meet any woman except for his wife after marriage ( lol) making all the fuss about premarital sex. I pity them for having double standards! Whoever opposing to premarital sex I have a question for all of them. Will they not indulge in a sexual encounter with a hot chik if she comes for free???
In traditional India, divorce is still a major taboo and hence is not an option. Moreover, except in the case of Muslims, one needs to give a concrete reason for divorce which could be deemed ‘valid’ by the court. Even among Muslims, how on earth are you going to let out in a taboo-ridden society that you divorced your wife just because she hated sex?
There is also a distinct possibility that after subliming your desires for such an (unnaturally) long time, you might not be able to perform after the late marriage. Waiting for marriage to have sex made sense in a world where people got married and settled down a couple of years after puberty (like my granddad who married at 14). Not in today’s scheme of things. Moralists can’t have it both ways – late marriages and no pre-marital sex.
@ vasudev
When people leave the religion they were born with, they usually do it of their own accord, after making well reasoned judgements (since religion is such an inherent part of one’s identity, in a religious country like India). There is usually no ‘western conspiracy” behind that. For example, I left Islam for various reasons that have nothing to do with groups ‘plan’ or organised effort to make me do so.
individual decisions and experiences cannot be common theory.
i couldn’t agree more with nita… especially abt the fact that pre-marital sex will reduce the instances of men visiting prostitutes, thereby reducing STDs and hence doing nothing but good to the society…
And if there is ANYTHING to be worried about and prevented in the society by the “culture vultures” (whoa.. well coined gal!) , it is FORCED SEX & not VOLUNTARY PRE-MARITAL SEX. if more girls n boys want to do IT earlier now, these cult vults don’t have a right to stop ppl from evolving from the traditional “pallu” culture that was forced onto girls since times unknown in India. It is just a lame “desperate” attempt to keep women from breaking the shackles that were put around ’em by men who thought they were meant to RULE the “fairer sex” for eternity..
Sexual intercourse with people who consent with each other = Ghandarva Marriage(one of the 6 or 7 types of marriage)!
Therefore, the word pre-marital sex is itself a paradox in Hindu religion coz it never exists.
PS Nita, I read in some other blog that you are a Brahmin…
some namam, I almost deleted the last line of your comment but as you seem to be a new reader I thought I would let it be as you have clearly not read my comment policy. It says clearly that I do not allow personal comments. In any case being a brahmin by birth does not affect my identity. I have a strong identity as a woman, a wife, a mother and a writer but I do not have an identity as a brahmin. No comment of yours regarding my caste will be published here from here on. Thanks. – Nita.
WOW…easy there! No need to get angry now…You are only angry at an IP address!
And let’s talk about your VARNA (not the other word) affecting your life in personal communication later. (I really do hope you are interested)
Coming back…what do you think of Ghandarva marriage? Interested to know more? Wanna know where the word came from?…Or are you just plain uninterested in spiritual talks?
PS You really need not get angry with me for a small reason. You could’ve just deleted that line and posted a small note like what you did. You seemed to be directing all your anger at me in that paragraph!
I guess every one have made thier points . Well ! India is such a country where people can change for a moment but be back to what they were next moment . No doubt we r higly influenced by west only in terms of clothing , speaking english (now a day fucking accent can be involved), eating but not certain things that relieve pleasure like sex , foreplay . sex games , sexual massages and sexual positions .
I will be honest to I dont regret to say im a highly sexed body means im kinda over sexed and im only 26 but feel hots for ladies older than me even if they r 50 yrs old . besides , Im not very ugly looking also but when it comes to talking to sex with women they r like shut up dont talk that way means denial from their end even if they say it in a light way . having sex with them is like winning world way 2.
I guess every one have made thier points . Well ! India is such a country where people can change for a moment but be back to what they were next moment . No doubt we r higly influenced by west only in terms of clothing , speaking english (now a day fucking accent can be involved), eating but not certain things that relieve pleasure like sex , foreplay . sex games , sexual massages and sexual positions .
I will be honest to I dont regret to say im a highly sexed body means im kinda over sexed and im only 26 but feel hots for ladies older than me even if they r 50 yrs old . besides , Im not very ugly looking also but when it comes to talking to sex with women they r like shut up dont talk that way means denial from their end even if they say it in a light way . having sex with them is like winning world war 2.
I like love, romance…..and youth and teenage is a great time to fall in love, have relationships etc. However…..marriage, committment…with all its problems is very important too. Adult men and women…..should have the freedom to decide…whether to have sexual relationships….before marriage…..or not. HOWEVER…..pre-maritial chastity is a beautiful value….and should not be thrown out like raddi. We should aim at a good combo of the East and the West. Balance is important
Point 1 – Family is the basis of all larger social and hence political organizations. Destroy family as a unit, then you will see destruction of clans, tribes, nations and even civilization.
Point 2 – Family can be possible only by sexual discipline – Voluntary or otherwise. Discipline involves a degree of subordination to custom or in simpler words a surrender of one’s ego for a greater purpose.
Point 3 – Man and woman who never practiced sexual discipline in their lives will have no moral right to advice their kids if they go wayward or do things that are self destructive (I had seen quite a number of cases like this).
Point 4 – In a scenario where larger units of kinship like families and clans disintegrate and individualism becomes rampant – as it is happening in industrialized and industrializing countries – result would be a generation that would be an unruly scumified mass of rootless cosmopolitans for who highest priority would be gratification of individual desires with no regard for greater good.
WHY?
Because if you let a union of man and a woman as a matter of pure individual choice, the INDIVIDUALISM will infect the whole chain of social relations and organizations that base family as its unit
Point 4 – One must bear in mind that what we call today as STATE is a result of men’s subordination of ego for a greater purpose. And whether one like it or not, all great human achievements was possible only when there was a strong STATE structure – be that ancient Egypt or British Empire. If so how can we endorse a PREMARITAL SEX AND CONCUBINAGE [LIVE IN RELATIONSHIPS ARE CONCUBINAGE and NOTHING MORE] both concepts deeply supportive of EXCESSIVE INDIVIDUALISM WITH NO REGARD FOR COMMON OR GREATER GOOD.
IS not this endorsement of excessive sexual freedom [be that for man or woman] beginnings of a long journey towards nihilism? Today they say its okay for a man and woman to have sex as they please. In future, who knows same INDIVIDUALISTIC PHILOSOPHY might make people say -“WE WILL NOT TAKE UP ARMS AND FIGHT FOR FATHERLAND EVEN IF INVADED BY HUNS SIMPLY BECAUSE WE DON’T FEEL LIKE FIGHTING BECAUSE OUR PERSONAL WILLS SAY NO TO FIGHTING.” – Are we to endorse a philosophy that promotes selfishness and self indulgence when it is an open secret that all attainments of mankind are as a result of surrender of one’s ego?
Point 5 – Those who can practise sexual restrain must be appreciated.Those who cant must be married off in their early 20’s. Would be a great idea if governments were to create a social and economic situation where young people could marry when they are in their physical and sexual peak and produce healthy offspring.
Great Points! The whole thing boils down to what kind of values we are promoting – values which promote instant gratification and consumerism(as happening in West) or values which encourage development of character, virtues, and a personality which is balanced(includes not being fanatic liberal too!) The fault is in the kind of worldview which is advocated by our leaders and intellectuals which promotes hedonism, consumerism – but not sacrifice for larger good.
Advocating instant-gratification will only bring irreparable damage not only to youngsters, but also society in the longer run. Don’t we need to promote a holistic view of life, rather than promoting a vision where gratification, the “right” to have it triumph over everything else? What about duties and responsibilities? My take : when we encourage promiscuous behavior in name of rights, we are in short advocating moral bankruptcy of the individual, the society and the nation.
Rajen,
We wish to publish you points in our newsletter. Great point!
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