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Why the world needs a better looking glass

August 12, 2009
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This is a guest post, written by a Bangalore-based blogger perplexed. It is about her experience during a vacation in Munnar, a hill station in Kerala where 3 of her friends had a horrible experience during a night bus journery. This post is about the eve-teasing they experienced all through their holiday and the experience she recounts here is just one of the many she and her friends experienced during the days they were in Munnar.

She has started off well with a contrast to lifestyles abroad. We in India condemn the so-called promiscuous society abroad and feel India is “better” but is it really better, perplexed asks? I loved the title of her post too, Why the world needs a better looking glass and have used the same for this post.

Her experience in Munnar is a common one that girls across India face. Why just a few days ago, my daughter who happens to be the same age as perplexed, was showing her friends around Pune. She, and her friends had the harrowing experience of being followed by a group of boys on Law College Road in broad daylight. It was 1:3o p.m. but these girls were still being followed, whistled at, and teased as they walked. Finally, they managed to shake the boys off but well, this story of harrassment of girls all over the country is so common that there is no doubt that this is not the “culture” that we Indians can be proud of. We in India keep talking of development, but it is clear that culturally we have gone downhill.

Here is the story that perplexed sent me:

It is the 21st century. Over half a century after India’s independence. A lot has changed over the decades. A lot of change is yet to happen. Change being the only constant and the only means to ensure growth and improvement, is necessary, very necessary.

When talking about the difference between two countries, the first ever thing that comes up is the culture. As Indians we are very proud of our country and we ought to be! but that isn’t to say we should be looking down upon another country’s ways and behaviour to pass a harsh judgment. Well, if one is really the keen observer and an unbiased viewer, I suppose one could take the liberty to do that but not otherwise. I will tell you why.

Let me introduce you to a friend of mine, let us call him… Mr.O. He happens to be one of the really nice people I have happened to come across. Someone who is very non-judgmental and doesn’t really voice his opinion until a very thorough observation and analysis has been done. So he tells me.

Mr.O recently went to Brazil for an internship of 5 months. Of course when one says brazil, the first thing that pops into our minds are beaches and the beautiful, hot people. Which I heard is not just an assumption but very much true!

Now, one month into the country and a little bit of partying and networking with the people there, Mr.O came across a startling discovery of the ways of the people there. Apparently, one girl he happens to know had kissed 27 men in one night at a pub and she was in fact not ashamed of that and at some level probably had a sense of achievement in it. people kissing each other is a very common thing everywhere in brazil I have been told. Mr.O seemed a little shocked by this kind of a behaviour.

Mr.O, is not exactly who you would call conservative but he is not someone who could be called very liberal either. That being the case, he told me “it is pretty much screwed up here, this is no way to live”. “India is so much different and better” he said also adding how girls are so much more “cultured” here.

You ask me, how we live in India, is no way to live!!

If you follow me on twitter, you probably know that I went on a holiday to Munnar last week. The place, I tell you is as green as green can get and as pretty as toy land where noddy stays! The weather is perfect, if we opened the windows to our room, we could see the clouds seeping in through them. Hot coffee, beautiful fog covered mountains, thick blankets and 3 most amazing people with me…life couldn’t get any better! It was awesomeness at its best! well…. at least for the most part of it.

The place was beautiful but I had some bad experiences with some people there. No offense to anyone from kerala, but those we came across are not what I call friendly. Maybe we came across the worst of the kind but it is pretty hard to imagine the good when you see so much of the bad.

Among the various bad experiences we had over the 5 days, I will just tell you one of them.

We were on our way to another place and since it was the weekend the train tickets were all booked and even the buses were booked, but luckily though, we got 4 seats on the last but one row. We sat there happily, looking forward to the journey hoping to have a little fun or just catch up on all the sleep we had lost. We were just about to settle down and get comfortable in the seats adjusting the inclination when we saw a group of 5 men walk past us to sit in the last row. Normally, this wouldn’t bother us much. But these 5 men were stinking and drunk. We could smell! It shocked us that drunk men were allowed inside the bus. We went up to the conductor, explained the situation and requested that we be given different seats, to which he replied with “no seats available” as bluntly as possible.

Well, ok we could manage, what’s the worst that could happen anyway? We had been through enough bad experiences over this one trip and besides once the windows are open we probably wouldn’t smell the stink, we thought. But it got worse, the men had got bottles inside the bus and were drinking, creating a havoc laughing out loud and pointing the torch at us at some point. Luckily for us, we don’t understand a word of Malayalam. This did not end there, one jerk in the group put his legs on the arm rest next to our seats hoping to do god knows what until we beat his leg with an umbrella that one of us had carried! This continued for the rest of the journey. We would have gotten off the bus but this was a night journey bus and we were stuck!

Maybe it was just 5 of those men, but what upset us most was the other 20 or more men in the bus who were oblivious to this very obvious discomfort of ours and refused to switch seats even after a request. Hard to believe not one man in the entire bus had the balls to ask those men to shut the fuck up or even just offer us some help. We did manage the situation on our own. We were capable of it even if we just had an umbrella as our weapon. But that isn’t the point.

we were 3 engineers and one doctor in the group. This incident happened to us in a crowd of what seemed like a very literate (if not educated) group of people.

Now, is this what you call a better culture? You decide!

This is not the way to live because I rather live in a place that accepts what it is than live in a place with double standards when it comes to how a man and a women are expected to exist. Worse things happens here, like that tantric who asked a father to have sex with his own daughter, the father who actually did it in the hope of getting better business and the mother who let this happen. It all happens, we would be disgusted beyond limits if everything came to light. It all happens but it is pushed under the carpet, because, you see, it is our superior “culture” to do so.

Related Reading: All posts on Crimes Against Women
Read all posts on Women

195 Comments
  1. ruSh.Me permalink
    August 12, 2009 4:13 pm

    Dear Nita,
    You forgot..
    We, India is a culture, more than 5000 yrs old..
    We, in India, the girls are always wrong..
    We, in India, THE GIRLS ARE ALWAYS ASKING FOR IT..
    We, in India, girls are akin to god..
    We, in India, the girls are killed even before being born, in hope for a boy(kul-deepak)
    We, in India, the girls can be treated like objects and animals..
    We, in India, the girl, being a girl is a crime..
    and most important..
    Saying all these(facts) makes us of low morals…

    “Why the world needs a better looking glass” probably could be better worded as “Why, we the Indians are the biggest hypocrites of all…”

    • August 12, 2009 4:44 pm

      we are.. aren’t we? High time we accepted the hypocrisy! I am personally tired of dealing with this every single day in some form or the other!

    • August 12, 2009 5:47 pm

      @ruSh.Me
      Then what about people like me and my family and many of my friends who believe in Women Freedom (or whatever you call it)???
      I don’t know why people generalise these problems!!

      See, if you have freedom you are asking for then above facts do not apply to your family+friends. So if you do a quick headcount, you will find lots of people who do not agree with all the “facts” you wrote above because they don’t believe in them.

      The point I am trying to make is, stop crying on the dead, just open your eyes and look at the living ones out there!!!! No offense!! No hard feelings!!

      • ruSh.Me permalink
        August 14, 2009 11:05 am

        Dear Sudarshan,

        People like you and your friends+family and my friends+family, are not even a minutest part of the Billion+ population of India.. You and me are educated, well connected, traveled and well-read.. Our relatives, friends of friends would not be having such tendencies.. but even including all the people you know.. it would be 100 or so individuals, who believe in “Women Equality”… So what about the 1,147,995,904 -100 rest??

        When I generalize about Indian culture, people like us, who know they are not “those” types, should not get offended and try to accept that besides the people you interact with, there are scores of people who do have these tendencies… I think its high time, that we accept this situation..

        • August 14, 2009 12:16 pm

          Hmmm thats a good reply😉
          And I like this style “Dear ####” 😀 😀

          • ruSh.Me permalink
            August 17, 2009 10:45 am

            LOL.. I would like you to address as “Dear Suda”, as I am familiar with you on twitter, but then according to “thoughts” here, “I would be ASKING for it, by being open and inviting..” You know..🙂

  2. August 12, 2009 4:13 pm

    Those 5 goons were idiots and cant be pardoned for what they did but the thing which boils my blod is out of other 20 men in the bus, no one even stood up to offer any help or to even beat up those goons ..

    Where is that helping nature of us indian has gone ?? .. When a thief is caugh stealing a bread, you beat him to death but when girls are getting harassed by 5 drunk men, you just sit and hide in wives’ pallu .. What kind of heroism and courage you are showing off ?? .. I feel sorry for the girls but I feel more sorry to those 20 men who has let that happen adn will never achieve anything their lives .. Coward Bastards .. Pardon my language here but it is insanely inappropriate nad bizarre..

  3. August 12, 2009 4:15 pm

    Really a shameful story for every indian who announce indian culture as the best culture.

    Indian culture is good but not the best. May be it was the best in the past but not today. The structure of indian culture, based on supression, is deteriorating and some so called DHARM-RAKSHAK are speeding up its deterioration.

    It is more humiliating that we the people, who boasts for bravery and courage , has shut their eyses and closed their ears to crime and corruption..

  4. ruSh.Me permalink
    August 12, 2009 4:19 pm

    Dear Perplexed,
    Can’t find you on twitter?

  5. August 12, 2009 5:41 pm

    I guess this may sound “too much” but my experience about the areas I have traveled in Maharashtra, (especially Pune-Kolhapur region) those 5 goons would have been thrown out of bus at first sign of wrong behavior.

    Now speaking of the incident of “the perplexed”, I have no answer. I don’t know what to do with such ‘no-balls’ people (the other 20 or so men).

    We can’t change them, they need to change themselves (and grow some balls).

    • August 12, 2009 8:51 pm

      I said the same thing too.. if it was in bangalore at least one man would have had the guts to say something and those 5 idiots wouldn’t really have so much of guts to behave the way they did! I commute alone everyday, I do hear some vague comments passed at times but never have I experienced such a thing in bangalore!

  6. wishtobeanon permalink
    August 12, 2009 6:37 pm

    Hi Nita, I was not shocked by this story; but, more such stories need to come out in the open. If the people who govern the country or states are criminals themselves, how can we ensure our safety or any justice? Then, you have movies and television(which has a very wide reach) that still show women as lesser beings(especially, some malayalam movies)… One proactive thing that we could do is keep ourselves fit, physically. I wish sports was given a lot more importance in our education system. Martial arts should be encouraged, especially for girls for self defence. But all these require time and money – so it’s like a vicious cycle. I hope I am not sounding too preachy?

    • vasudev permalink
      August 12, 2009 11:04 pm

      would like to know which are those malayalam movies which show women as lesser beings. lesser beings in what way? to my mind, malayalam movies are the most realistic you can find in india.

      • rags permalink
        August 17, 2009 4:28 pm

        Maybe that’s why they are shown as lesser beings? Because they reflect reality…😉

        • vasudev permalink
          August 17, 2009 4:36 pm

          rags..surprised u did not come out with it earlier, even though i was expecting such a jibe from you. realised it only after the arrow was launched (smile)

          • rags permalink
            August 17, 2009 11:11 pm

            Vasu, don’t take me wrong. I seriously do think malyalam movies are great and much more realistic than other regional language movies. Infact given the amount of money being wasted on crappy commerical Tamil movies I would be very happy if some of that money is channelised into utilising mallu directors for making good movies. I don’t know if there is a communist angle to both Bengalis and Malayalis making nice movies compared to their counterparts from other languages…. Or maybe it is the social situation which was conducive for the emergence of such movements in these states… I know, I’m rambling.

  7. August 12, 2009 6:40 pm

    I am an Indian married to a Brazilian. I can totally identify with the culture shock of kissing in Brazil. It is a little disgusting, and by no means justifyable in the Indian context. However, “girl kissing 27 men in one night” needs a little more context. Kissing is really a light peck on the two cheeks (3 pecks if you are in the south parts, hehe). It is done unconciously as a part of the greeting. Again, I am also disgusted, however, I feel that the “bad eyes” of Indian men, as I observed growing up are worse.

    While the brazilians greet each other, it is really a greeting. But when the supressed men of India even eye-ball a lady, its worse than the kissing because the intent is lusty to the extreme.

    Good juxtapositioning of points, Nita.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 12, 2009 11:07 pm

      Tvick…let us underline ‘suppressed’. i think that explains the whole thing.

  8. August 12, 2009 8:35 pm

    Nita, may be I am talking off topic here, but you think we are what can be termed as a middle of a bigger change?, the idea of a conservative India is so different in each of our eyes. When a father asks his/son or daughter to be home before 9, he is considered to be conservative by some of us, and some consider him to be conservative because he is asking his kids to be home, and some consider the kids conservative because they are still living with their parents. I mean, there is too wide a spectrum in our perception, when compared to say few years ago. May be we are in middle of the dusty cloud, and there is a sort of clear past and the future.

    or may be I sound too vague

  9. Vipul permalink
    August 12, 2009 9:33 pm

    I like to think of India as organized chaos. In that respect, I’m no longer surprised by such incidents.
    To pick up on one or two points – Indians dont really think of themselves as culturally superior – deep down people know it’s just a garb over reality and that the feeling is merely self-congratulatory.
    Further, stemming from this feeling of cultural superiority is the notion that the west is promiscuous. This sentiment just furthers our cause.
    No the west is not ‘promiscuous’ – they are more expressive and ready to go along with their ‘feelings’. Its a difficult topic to explain- but suffice to say that the progress made by the west in every field – science / academic research / medicine / sport etc. would not have happened if the society was, well, ‘promiscuous’.
    Put another way, ask any Indian boy / girl if they have had a sexual encounter (not by paying please!) in the west within the first 3-6 months of moving there, and the answer will be almost none. If the west was always ready to ‘party’ the answer would be different.
    Let me also anticipate responses along the lines of – But is the west ‘Happy’? etc. by saying Yes, they are.

  10. rags permalink
    August 12, 2009 10:12 pm

    Indian culture stinks majorly for women. No doubt about that. People wouldn’t mind guys sneaking out to prostitutes but they would have a problem with two people in a loving relationship getting physical. Our Indian culture revolves around only one word. Hide, hide and hide! I wouldn’t blame it on men alone. There are many women who are ever ready to play the role of the sacrificial goat. Commercial movies go a long way in reinforcing stupid stereotypes about a woman’s sexuality (or the lack of it). If Indian men inspite of all their freedom are considered to be seriously repressed what about the women? Women’s sexuality is totality denied in our society.

    As for the men who didn’t help the author, well, it depends on the place and the people actually. I have seen many men defending women in such situations and also some others who slink away like cowards. Some men are up to it and some are not.

  11. vasudev permalink
    August 12, 2009 10:57 pm

    eve teasing is very common in kerala. especially in crowded buses which have college/school girls as ‘standees’ there are many men who indulge in physical molestation. nowadays girls have become cleverer. they carry handy pins as weapons and so straying hands quickly withdraw. in crowded buses with standees, the molestor is as unseen as the molested.

    although kerala is as attractive as goa the mallus aren’t safe with semi or full female nudity. dress code is very important in kerala if one uses public transport or wants to go to public places. improper dress invites much more molestation than proper. i am surprised however that the others didn’t help. normally any eve-teaser caught in a bus gets a good thrashing from the public.

    the current evil of kerala is party goondaism. especially the biggest goons and molesters are the communist party hit-boys. locals fear to cross their path since these guys have a long memory for heroes. kerala has witnessed a spurt of killings in the name of party politics. most of the time it is personal vendetta. therefore, i suspect these drunk goons were locals who were probably well known for goondaism and no one wanted to take any risk with them.

    irrespective of all that, kerala IS a place where women ARE molested, especially attractive women or women with super-white/off-white skins or those wearing modern dresses. while touring kerala it is better to hire a tourist taxi and pay that extra money for sake of safety. this is also true for families visiting kerala.

    quite interestingly,yesterday i was discussing indian culture on another blog-site. this was in relation to an ‘indian heritage’ website which has just opened and the stuff posted there, right from the vedic ages. an australian pointed out a fact…that indians keep on harping on their culture and rich past while a country which has no age-old cultural past to talk of is the world supremo!

    so we decided that we should throw out our indian history books and the indian culture richness and try to find out ways how to start from now and become rich (in money-power)

    • August 13, 2009 12:25 am

      you should know that this was in munnar where it was freakin cold and therefore we were covered head to toe in sweatshirts and even socks! The only thing we probably missed was the monkey cap!!!!

      I am sorry, but I am a little irritated with people having a say about what women wear when such an issue is raised… HOW IS THAT RELATED?? I don’t think these men go after what they wear, it is mostly about how vulnerable the girl looks to them!

      • vasudev permalink
        August 13, 2009 10:11 am

        i did not ‘accuse’ you of being like that. i merely stated situations. please read the whole thing and come to a conclusion. thanks.

  12. August 12, 2009 11:18 pm

    As for the general nature of Indian men, I would recommend the relevant essay from Mukul Kesavan’s book, “The Ugliness of the Indian Male and Other Propositions“.

    For Indian women, my message is the same as Dr. Ambedkar gave to the Dalits, Educate, Organize, Agitate. On the other hand you could just migrate to Brazil😉

    • August 12, 2009 11:18 pm

      Oops Nita can you fix my bad html.

      vikram, I wasn’t sure which link you had given because there was no evidence of it but I added one. – Nita

    • rags permalink
      August 13, 2009 6:22 am

      Vikram,Thanks for the link. Need to get this book.

      Loved this line
      “Through a perfectly constructed argument he concludes that the truth about Hindi films is that “mainly male audiences buy tickets to adore indifferent looking men”).”

      I’d like to add, the truth about Tamil films is that mainly male audiences buy tickets to adore revolting ugly guys (who probably resemble them) prancing around with white chicks.

      • vasudev permalink
        August 13, 2009 10:14 pm

        rags…u said it!

    • vasudev permalink
      August 13, 2009 11:00 am

      vikram

      i liked that!

  13. August 13, 2009 12:03 am

    This is happening everyday in India… I think we are losing the morals here… respect for a fellow human…
    women are treated really badly here… no doubt in that…😡

  14. locutus83 permalink
    August 13, 2009 2:53 am

    It seems that there will always be a section of Indian men who will be ignorant, stupid, selfish and grossly inconsiderate to everyone around them, let alone women, and will behave like utter twats both in public and in private. It is painful and frustrating to hear of such incidents and I share the indignation of those ladies who had to go through this.

    I think the reason why some men don’t protest in situations like these is a combination of pussilanimity (“why should I risk being beaten up?”), short-sightedness (they fail to realize that their own daughter/wife may be molested someday in a similar situation if such incidents become commonplace and accepted) and maybe a sense of sadistic male-superiority (“Those girls deserve that! How dare they come out freely laughing, mingling, exploring and enjoying themselves?! Women should shut up and meekly stay in the confines of their homes!”)

    Many such Indian men are not taught how to respect women and to be considerate and sensitive to their feelings from childhood. Neither are the taught proper manners, grooming, civility. And they cannot come out of their fearful “tamasha watching” herd mentality to be proud and brave men who can fight for causes that are just and honorable. It’s really unfortunate.

    Looking at the sexual angle with respect to eve-teasing – This may sound a bit blunt and inappropriate – but I think we all agree that all straight boys and men who have crossed puberty have sexual desire in varying degrees. Boys, be it Indian, African or American all want to get laid sometimes, don’t they!

    It is therefore, in my opinion, sheer stupidity and extremely counter-productive to make the lady you desire feel disgusted, scared and angry at your obnoxious and lewd behavior!! If you really want to get intimate with her (even in the sort term), you must at least make your woman feel comfortable and safe in your presence, and you must TRY to make yourself likable and worthy of respect in her eyes at the minimum. Also, you need to be sensitive towards her feelings and be somewhat emotionally intimate first! And that comes with a lot of SELF-CONTROL and SELFLESSNESS (desire to please the other too rather than just oneself) and SENSITIVITY, which unfortunately these lecherous thugs don’t possess. Many Indian guys just don’t know or don’t care about the core basics of seduction!

    I really pity the desperate guys who jerk off after groping a woman’s breast in public. It’s pathetic – utterly short term selfish sexual gratification at the expense of someone’s dignity. If only they could realize that they would have a better chance of getting great sex if they started being NICE to ladies!!

    This illogical sexual repression applies to the society in general too. Mathematically, more men have a greater chance of getting laid if more women are free, liberated, safe and happy! So it doesn’t make bloody sense to virtually imprison women and then resort to eve-teasing and rape to satisfy your suppressed sexual desires!

    As for the ladies, I know this is unfair, but India is still not “man” enough in many areas where you can venture alone freely without any fear. It’s best to stick to trusted company. But please be bold and look confident in whatever you wear – and learn some self-defence and learn how to run fast (when you are outnumbered!). Other qualities which may help you may be the ability to shout, scream and scratch, and an in depth vocabulary in the choicest expletives. And if things get physical, a can of mace should work, otherwise a hard kick to the ‘manhood’ (whatever little has grown) should do the job temporarily.

    Please don’t take abuse and eve-teasing lying down and please don’t suffer in silence. There are quite a few decent and brave Indian men around who would come to your rescue!

    P.S. – Nita, I really liked your new blog design and fonts! Very elegant and suave.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 13, 2009 11:31 am

      indian men generally (or most commonly) lose their chivalry (in matters refering to other damsels) after marriage, especially when wife is around. why is that?

  15. guru permalink
    August 13, 2009 3:21 am

    Everyone out here thinks he/she is correct with their perspective. Understandable.
    Everyone here has their finger to point out to the world. Understandable.
    Everyone here just formed yourselves a community of similar thoughts. Understandable.
    But this won’t change the situation.
    @men: The guys are the same everywhere..be it the guy on the road who has eve teased or the guys who are expressing your emotions here..the guys on the street are getting fun by eve teasing and you are getting fun by watching porn ! its the same..the world wont change the way you want it to..So god damn learn to live with it.

    • rags permalink
      August 13, 2009 10:20 am

      Sure, men are the same. But when some guys want to act out on their impluses by eve teasing they are violating another person’s right to lead a dignified life! One the other hand watching porn is not going to harm anyone. Guess it doesn’t take rocket science to figure that out. IMO, legalizing porn will actually be beneficial to Indian society.

      • Vinod permalink
        August 13, 2009 12:43 pm

        Rags, I would take a closer look at the porn industry and its internal operations and whether it has any pernicious effects on the dignity of women – the way it gets women to join the industry and the way women are treated withi it – before thinking about legalizing it or opinionating on whether it would be beneficial to Indian society.

        I cannot help wonder what makes women opt to do porn, if at all they are in fact opting for it.

    • August 13, 2009 10:45 am

      Hmmmm, interesting perspective!!! So you mean men who do eve teasing and men who don’t do eve teasing are same? Do you mean they make porn forcefully bcoz people wanna see it? Looks like you haven’t seen any for testing 😀 😀

      @rags
      Legalising porn?? Naaah…. we will miss the fun of finding, hiding, sharing etc etc …. you know.. the guys stuff.

      • August 13, 2009 2:05 pm

        Suda, if you don’t think of a woman as a human being with feelings and self dignity, but just a sex object, then the comparison between porn and eve-teasing becomes clear. Porn as you said is not forced, but there are willing actors who get paid for it. Also they want men to watch it. This cannot be compared to molestation and eve-teasing unless you don’t take a woman’s willingness into consideration at all.

    • August 16, 2009 11:24 am

      Guru, Nothing ever changed by keeping mum and doing nothing. This discussion here might not really help the issue directly. But its a start. Ideas and solutions are born only when there is a debate/discussion. And I would hate to think that the guys are the same everywhere. I know a few good men. I wouldn’t compare any man I know with those 5 losers! Eve-teasing is not the same as watching porn! I am not willing to be an object on the street who is there only so that people can take advantage of but women in porn are there only so that people can watch them and have fun.

  16. Devanshu permalink
    August 13, 2009 5:06 am

    I smell the stink of feminism as I sift thr0ugh the blogs, and rush. me, rashmi whatever your name is: http://www.dailypioneer.com/195595/Gender-revolution-in-national-Capital.html

    There! The sex ratio in favour of GIRLS! But that is alright no, since the ‘fairer’ sex is in majority.

    And I have looked through the posts of Mrs. Nita’s blog and this must be the 10th or so article on female harassment I have come across, when there are much much more bigger things plaguing India. And yes, the Western societies are promiscuous, something like a 25 percent STD rate here in the US, but some people posting here I bet see that as a sign of “progress”. Trust me no nation has become a superpower by blindly following the values of another culture.

    10 out of a thousand? I am sure there are many more on this topic Devanshu and in my view, simply not enough. Also, to say that people posting here think that the STD rate is a sign of progress, is not a fair statement. Considering that in India most of these things are hidden. In India we do everything, only its hidden. Many men in India, particularly in the rural and semi-urban areas, commit adultery and it’s their “right.” It’s time we imbibed whatever is good, and threw away the bad, whether it means going back to our own culture, or taking a cue from another, or kicking out the bad from another culture or our own. Finally its morality that we are talking about here and morality is an universal value. Respect for another, honesty and purity in the way of living and so on. – Nita.

    • August 13, 2009 8:51 am

      Devanshu, it is very heartening to see the sex ratio improving in Delhi. Man or woman, should not play with nature’s balance of things. And trust me, the more Indian society improves, the better India will become.

      Unfortunately, in many parts of India the trends are grim, please see this report, sex ratios in some areas have fallen to 300 females per 1000 males,

      http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf

      • Devanshu permalink
        August 13, 2009 9:31 am

        Hey Vikram, this file is not working, do you see India’s gender balance evening out soon then, and do you think these figures of Delhi might be inflated? I think such a drastic improvement over one year seems unrealistic. Regarding the 1.3 ratio you mentioned, is this in Punjab/Haryana villages for example?

        • Devanshu permalink
          August 13, 2009 9:35 am

          Oops, i noticed to put a “f” in the url, thanks Vikram.

        • August 14, 2009 3:23 am

          No Devanshu, things are going to get much much worse in the entire UP, MP, Rajasthan and Haryana belt. These are stagnant and decaying states with little social progress and an entrenched, exploitative elite. I think life is going to become living hell for women in that part of the world and for the general population in that region (if it isnt already).

          I hope I am wrong, the census of 2011 will give us some idea.

    • ruSh.Me permalink
      August 14, 2009 11:22 am

      Dear Devanshu,

      Nita’s blog will stop functioning if I start providing links of Gender Ratio for the rest of the India.. 1004:1000?? I guess an excess of 4 women per 1000 would take years to compensate for National average of 933:1000, or Haryana 861:1000, or even Daman & Diu (read it) 561:1000 !! Facts!!

  17. Devanshu permalink
    August 13, 2009 8:04 am

    Nita, i see what you mean, but some of your posters and even you wrote how you wanted India to become promiscuous, thats all, and i think all the hullaballo about sex ratio is unfounded as all the latest figures show an upward trend in favor of females.

    I read your story and the female victims in the bus, they have my sympathy but in all respect has she ever been to north India like Lucknow, Bhopal, Kanpur? If not then she hasn’t experienced eve teasing, it is BAAD there. Honestly i don’t think we should even take gender politics into account regarding this previous scenario. It just looks like several drunken misbehaved men bringing attention to themselves.

    • August 13, 2009 8:15 am

      Devanshu, no one has said that they want India to become promiscuous. All that people are saying is that in India we criticize promiscuity, but keep trumpeting our own “culture” where women are ill-treated. This is hypocrisy. Promiscuity where both men and women are willing partners is certainly better than rape and molestation don’t you agree? That doesn’t mean that we want India go to any extremes. One has to have a just society.
      Also, if you say gender shouldn’t come into the picture, do you think that these drunken men would have behaved in this manner if there were four boys instead of four girls? You know the answer to that question.
      And yes, all of us are aware as to how bad eve-teasing can get in certain cities, but this isn’t about that. I think all of us know that this happens all over India, and it may be worse in some cities.

  18. Vinod permalink
    August 13, 2009 8:50 am

    Nita, I was wondering whether it would be a tactical ploy for women who take public transport to look and dress traditional and dour. Would that keep molestors away? Do molestors look for women who dress in “western” dresses?

    • August 13, 2009 8:59 am

      No certainly not Vinod! They look for women who are alone, defenseless. Dress has nothing to do with it! 90% of women who are teased and molested wear indian clothes across india. In public transport women rarely venture out in skimpy clothes but I assure you that despite this they become victims too. I have personally had my worst experience (in terms of how scared I was) regarding eve-teasing when I was in a saree on the way to work on a holiday and I was alone in the train compartment. Luckily nothing happened because the train halted at a station and I quickly jumped out.

      • Vinod permalink
        August 13, 2009 10:12 am

        Thank you for responding, Nita. Much appreciated.

    • rags permalink
      August 13, 2009 10:22 am

      In my experience it makes no difference. Guys can eve-tease even a woman in a burqa.

      • Vinod permalink
        August 13, 2009 12:45 pm

        Quite true, Rags. I’ve actually seen youtube videos of men molesting women in burqa. I don’t know how I could forget that while asking Nita that question.

      • vasudev permalink
        August 13, 2009 1:59 pm

        burqa actually makes the molesters too inquisitive because of lack of gloves, socks and because the woman also talks and walks.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 13, 2009 1:55 pm

      vinod

      in kerala buses the molesters maintain impartiality as the hand does its job as if it has its own brain and the owner has no inkling where all it travels (if caught the owner takes the kicks though).

      but yes. your dress gets guys to note you for future comsumption if you are wearing a dress specifically meant for being noticed (like any of the metro girls would find life a whole saga of molestations in kerala).

      it is better to dress ugly than get raped.

  19. August 13, 2009 10:16 am

    “culture”…a pretty comfortable mask 4 us…ain’t it?

  20. August 13, 2009 10:17 am

    The hell! Can’t say more not coz i am not affected or have become too cynical to acknowledge this but as you somewhere mentioned, each one of us, at some point of time have faced such situation. ANd it pisses me off… more so, coz its more like an impotent anger!!

  21. Lakshmi permalink
    August 13, 2009 3:22 pm

    I lived in India for 33 years of my life and sexual harassment is a way of life. I was out there on the buses, and roads and trains of a large city. And traveled frequently across cities by train alone. And sexual harassment is part and parcel of being a woman. I’ve traveled by night bus in Madhya Pradesh not daring to sleep for hands would start groping the moment you are not agile enough to ward it off – nobody was drunk. Walking near a boys college and waiting in a bus stop near a boys college is a scary experience – because it’s only a thin line that divides the verbal comments and real physical molestation. And one keeps quiet because one knows that there is simply no help.

    I thought this was the way of the world and realized after coming to a developed country that that was India. I experienced for the first time security and safety as a woman, and oh, the joy of living here. It was freedom for the first time.

    • Vinod permalink
      August 13, 2009 3:33 pm

      This is very telling of India. I reckon I am not over-reacting when I advise my female Chinese colleagues NOT to travel to India unless they can afford to have a trusted personal means of travel to every place.

      I shudder to think what it would be like to be a father to a daughter in India. Everytime she steps out the anxiety about her safety must get overbearing. What a life!!

      Vinod, it’s not that bad because girls learn to take care of themselves. However non-Indians cannot handle it. Our girls develop an antenna. I know I have one. You can sense when some guys are trouble. – Nita

      • Lakshmi permalink
        August 14, 2009 2:38 pm

        Antennas don’t help in a bus or street situation where it’s all about power. A woman is often helpless. Period.

  22. ahumanbean permalink
    August 13, 2009 6:29 pm

    @Perplexed: Not sure why you think molestation doesn’t happen in BLR, and that men will defend a woman. That sure hasn’t been the case – compared to even 15 years ago, you’d be amazed at the feeling of insecurity any girl/woman feels on any street after 6 pm or in daylight. Groping, mauling, sick comments, blocking a woman’s path on a pavement – all have become SO routine.

    Am saddened that the ludicrous topic of Women’s Attire Being Determined by Neaderthal Men has come up – even here, on an erudite person’s blog.

    Think about this: if a man wears a RS 2,50,000/- watch on Indian streets, does that mean any woman has the right to steal it ?

    So – why are the men dictating dress codes to women?

    These are men with no b***s , and worse still, Mummies at home who make their chappathis and wash their chaddis

    (Perplexed said “I said the same thing too.. if it was in bangalore at least one man would have had the guts to say something and those 5 idiots wouldn’t really have so much of guts to behave the way they did! I commute alone everyday, I do hear some vague comments passed at times but never have I experienced such a thing in bangalore!”

    • perplexed611 permalink
      August 13, 2009 6:40 pm

      maybe it does happen here in bangalore too although i haven’t faced anything of that sort. somehow I would like to believe that where I stay is a lot safer and better than where this happened to us. But speaking to a few friends here made me realize it happens here too.. a lot.. I have just been lucky, that’s all! Makes me so sad though.

      • Lakshmi permalink
        August 14, 2009 2:31 pm

        perhaps u lead an upper class. It would be surprising if you took public transport and walked the streets alone and have not experienced sexual harassment. How I hate the word ‘eve teasing’.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 13, 2009 9:42 pm

      ahumanbean…by closing one’s eyes if darkness gets true then how nice a world would this be to live in! i do not regret having approached ‘also’ the topic of dress code on an erudite person’s blog. the truth is, that person, being a jounalist, understood the truth in what i said and refrained from commenting. that i am a neanderthal might be just a passing opinion but let me assure you…i have no objection to that. reality is reality. for everything else please refer to kumar’s comments below.

  23. August 13, 2009 7:09 pm

    perplexed,
    First of all this event needs to be condemned.We can get a better understanding if
    give further details regarding the kind of atmosphere this scary event happened.

    1) Like the kind of bus you & your friends are travelling.
    2) Are you & your friends are the only women in the Bus ?
    3) Are you and your friends are extremely beautiful ?
    4) The bus you are travelling suits your economic status ?
    5) Why you couldn’t get the front seats ? Are you late in reserving your tickets ?
    5) Are the people who harrassed are educated ? i doesn’t mean literate..?
    6) Do you feel your economic class is at par with the kind of Bus and people whom you are travelling with.
    7) Have you & your friends had stared at the co passengers or the passengers who had troubled you in any manner which shows you people as superior…(psychology).
    8) DO you feel you and your friends had a friendly attitude towards co passengers or you had a splitted face for them.

    Though my questions might be absurd to you. But they matter alot.See, India is a Multi cultural society & also there is a lot of economic differences between people.Not all the literates are college educated or university educated.There have’s and Have not’s.We just cant demand freedom at all places in this world.

    If the people involved are equally educated and from the same class of background like you the victims than i feel this is something which shouldn’t happen.

    I found some girls dont mind if the co passengers are drinking especially indian girls in Europe or USA.But they are uncomfortable with indians guys drinking.I know this is a class divide.

    • perplexed611 permalink
      August 13, 2009 9:40 pm

      DUDE, first of all… none of your questions seem to relate to what happened! just to clear it for YOU and for no other reason I shall answer your questions here!

      We do not mind people drinking in the bus either…. really… we don’t…they can drink, do what they want even if it against the law but what the heck! We have come to tolerate such things BUT we mind if their hands and legs don’t mind their own business and bother us!

      1. It was a KSRTC executive rajahamsa luxury bus.
      2. NO. There were just 4 others. If we were just us does that give them the right to molest us or do whatever it is that they want????
      3. DOES THAT COUNT? so do you go harassing every pretty girl you see?
      4. errr…. how does this matter! I could afford it and that’s why I was on it!
      5. It was a weekend and the timing of the bus was best suited for our schedule(like anyone willingly takes the back seat.. duh!)
      6. ?????? HOW DOES IT MATTER? no one has the right to harass just because they are rich or poor!
      7. NO. We do not have eyes at the back of our heads to stare at them! AND REALLY WE ARE NOT THAT DESPERATE TO STARE AT A BUNCH OF DRUNK MONKEYS. even if it is to look superior (whatever you mean by that)

      kumar, I am sorry for sounding rude but I am 22, I know how to behave in public places and so do my friends, as I have already mentioned we were a bunch of 3 engineers and 1 doctor. I get where your questions are coming from but whatever the answer to those questions, it does not give anyone the right to treat 4 girls that way just because we were incapable of escaping the situation since it was a night journey.

      here is a simple thought… After 62 years of independence, why is it so hard for 4 women to travel by themselves in the country? Why can’t I feel that sense of security that I probably should be?

      • vasudev permalink
        August 13, 2009 9:51 pm

        perplexed…i found profound meaning in what vikram had said;

        “For Indian women, my message is the same as Dr. Ambedkar gave to the Dalits, Educate, Organize, Agitate. On the other hand you could just migrate to Brazil”

        well…you said you are only 22. let’s say 28 years hence what sort of an india can the woman in you create? you cannot because rather than face it sqarely you might migrate to where women either have respect or have lost it all and therefore everything is on ‘no eyebrows raised’ base.

        • August 13, 2009 10:09 pm

          But vasudev, this post wasn’t just me whining… I love my country…I am proud of so much of it… i need not have to move somewhere else to feel safe… do i? isn’t home is where you feel the safest??

          As a woman, I can only tell my friends who are men to respect other women and teach my sons the same. I cannot do anything more.

          • vasudev permalink
            August 13, 2009 10:20 pm

            perplexed…fortunately you just might be able to create a different india by the time you are 50. the reasons being, the next 25 or so years are crucial when you might find an entirely new generation of strong-willied and educated women force doing their best at their own levels to educate, orgqanise and agitate positively. and fortunately our indian economy, class divide and inequality would also disappear by then as more and more sons of thugs take to studying rather than spending time on unseless activities. where there is opportunity man tries to grab. when opportunities are absent the devil takes over. let’s hope for the best.

            • vasudev permalink
              August 13, 2009 10:21 pm

              regret…indian economy should not be read alongside disappear. please adjust.

      • August 13, 2009 10:40 pm

        @perplexed611
        “for no other reason I shall answer your questions here!”
        Well, Its your wish their is no obligation to answer.

        “We do not mind people drinking in the bus either…. really… we don’t…they can drink, do what they want even if it against the law but what the heck! We have come to tolerate such things BUT we mind if their hands and legs don’t mind their own business and bother us!”

        Exactly drinking is not a problem as long as they are well behaved i agree with you.

        “2. NO. There were just 4 others. If we were just us does that give them the right to molest us or do whatever it is that they want???? ”
        No, That doesn’t give any right to molest as there are less females in a Bus ..But it sure gives a hint that one (femlae lonely passengers) must be more alert and in the entire journey one must maintain calm and shouldn’t attract any attention from others.

        “3. DOES THAT COUNT? so do you go harassing every pretty girl you see?”
        It really counts.One of my cousin sister is exremely beautiful so we always take care of her.Now she is in USA now after marriage but still we take care.Though she is in USA she faced some similar problems like here in India.Hope this explains you.

        “4. errr…. how does this matter! I could afford it and that’s why I was on it!”
        The point is if you are not of the same economic status of the kind of bus like you can afford a taxi than it will be more safe.

        “5. It was a weekend and the timing of the bus was best suited for our schedule(like anyone willingly takes the back seat.. duh!)”
        This means you have a prior knowledge of this journey and didn’t planned it well to book the front seats.I had seen most of the indian women they come in the last minute of the journey and plead the male passengers for the front seats which is wroung.They take the advantage of being women and kids and disturb the male passengers who plan their journey. Its impolite to plead for front seats like this.Since we have a reservation system you have to plan your journey and even if you get the back seats shouldn’t disturb the fellow passengers for the front seats.Thats why i asked this qustion.

        “6. ?????? HOW DOES IT MATTER? no one has the right to harass just because they are rich or poor!”
        When you are travelling with the poor or rural or say illeterate people or say less/semi educated people one should behave with extra compassion towars them.Its just like be a “Roman in Rome”. For a poor person or less priviledged person you should show extra care in dealing with them.You should hide your urban status,You should hide your education,Its best if you dress moderately also.I had seen most of the Rich people or urban people end up having very bad time in villages or with poor people.This way you can avoid any instances like this rather using your Umbrella🙂

        “7. NO. We do not have eyes at the back of our heads to stare at them! AND REALLY WE ARE NOT THAT DESPERATE TO STARE AT A BUNCH OF DRUNK MONKEYS. even if it is to look superior (whatever you mean by that)”
        Just with this sentence we can guage your attitude why all this happened to you.You really need to change this. I feel you got an urban attitude.You can’t call them bunch of monkeys just they are drinking.And when you visit a pub or disco you are ready to dance with the Drunk monkeys.

        “kumar, I am sorry for sounding rude”
        Its your choice to be rude or not.. it depends upon our moods also.

        “it does not give anyone the right to treat 4 girls that way just because we were incapable of escaping the situation since it was a night journey.”
        Well, You could have easily avoided this incident.Just its the presence of mind and behaviour which will help.

        You are not in Europe where you can have better treatment all the time.

        “here is a simple thought… After 62 years of independence, why is it so hard for 4 women to travel by themselves in the country?”
        Okay, You were asking a single Guy to help you girls in the Bus. You are 22 years old in india and can you give one instance where you helped any Boy who is in need.So, why you expect a boy to help you ?

        “Why can’t I feel that sense of security that I probably should be?’
        Do you mean Men are secure ? no, they are not.

        • Naveen permalink
          August 13, 2009 11:20 pm

          Kumar,

          Jesus Christ!! Never imagined that a person would believe(in English) that human oppression is a natural state of things. Probably there were none in the bus to help her, Remeber -I am sure there will be lots of people who’d counter your crap here.

          • August 13, 2009 11:53 pm

            Naveen,

            The way the girl is asking for the help is out of feminism.Not as a Human.As she is female she wants a help.That too she is demanding and questioning the Guts of the fellow male co-passengers.And saying as if its the duty of the Guys in the bus to help her and her friends.

            We don’t know the kind of behaviour & attitude they are having.thats why i asked her some questions where its quite obvious to understand her behavoural pattern.I had seen most of these kind of girls ending up badly with these kind of treatments in these circumstances.

            Its quite natural to see oppression in these circumstances.No one will come for their rescue in any civilised world.Whther its a male or female it doesn’t matter.Even in west also.

            I dont know what kind of crap you found..??

            • Naveen permalink
              August 14, 2009 12:51 am

              Really! you could judge the ‘behavioural pattern’ of a girl with a couple of questions? I know a bit of psychology and I’d like to know your qualifications in Psychology.

              I would certainly want my family to be saved in such circumstances. I am sure you do too. To receive help, isn’t it an obligation to give help? Doesn’t obligation mean duty? Not sure- which ‘West’ you are talking about? But in America, if you don’t help a victim (atleast by calling police)- you are culpable.

              “I had seen most of these kind of girls ending up badly….”

              This is what is crap. Any progress made till date (anywhere in the world) is by people who question, not who accept status-quo. And if oppression is seen as a ‘natural state’ in any circumstance, doesn’t the word ‘civilized’ loose its meaning? And I think its time for you to read about the Women’s suffrage movement(in US). You will learn a thing or two about what Feminism really means and why is it important in present day India?

              • August 14, 2009 1:34 am

                @Naveen
                “Really! you could judge the ‘behavioural pattern’ of a girl with a couple of questions?”
                Do you mean calling fellow homan beings as monkeys is correct usage ? Infact, its racially biased usage.

                “I would certainly want my family to be saved in such circumstances.I am sure you do too. To receive help, isn’t it an obligation to give help? Doesn’t obligation mean duty? Not sure- which ‘West’ you are talking about? But in America, if you don’t help a victim (atleast by calling police)- you are culpable.”
                See Naveen, calling for help is okay.But you can’t say its an obligation and this way you can judge the people who are not helping.Since they are not helping you they will become something.We dont know what their difficulties are.Calling the police is the best solution which she herself can do with mobiles in hand now-a-days.

                “This is what is crap. Any progress made till date (anywhere in the world) is by people who question, not who accept status-quo. And if oppression is seen as a ‘natural state’ in any circumstance, doesn’t the word ‘civilized’ loose its meaning?”
                See you go to a less priviledged place/rural place,travel with them show your urban pride to them and show you richness to them and you want the under priviledged person or the person who is semi-educated to be kind to you seeing your education and being urban …..he has to help you when you are in need .. ..this is Called as CRAP.Do you mean this is civilised way to handle situations…?

                When a middle class person enters a 5-star hotel/posh disco or say a village person enters a 5 star hotel, have you seen how the elite rich educated girls behave and how rude they will be..?
                Teach your lessons to them.So, same holds good when you travel in a normal bus the rich or educated people or Urban class will have their time.what goes around comes around.The best solution is the better behaviour and behaviour intune with the environment where we are.Since, we have such a diverse country.

                And I think its time for you to read about the Women’s suffrage movement(in US). You will learn a thing or two about what Feminism really means and why is it important in present day India?
                I had stayed & worked in USA & Europe.Further, I read the womens suffrage movement (in USA) and elsewhere.I am well versed about the fight for the equality of gender in Europe.And i have a high regard for European women who implements “gender equality” in practice and never looks aound for any help.And i am sure we never saw women in our culture that bad as any other culture had seen.What i mean to say is you can’t take gender as a weapon for an advantage and to ask for a front seat in a Bus disturbing the fellow male
                passengers. is it .. Polite ? or you wanna call it your fav word CRAP.
                you can’t judge fellow passengers just as they didn’t helped you.Its best to evaluate ourselves first.checking What went wroung with us ?

                • Naveen permalink
                  August 14, 2009 3:11 am

                  Calling a bunch of rogues ‘Monkeys’ upsets you and you call it a ‘racial’ comment. But you take the freedom to judge a girl’s integrity, whom you never met. To you this is logical. I can suggest you one thing -your prejudices about ‘urban behavior’ and ‘bus seat incident’ doesn’t apply everywhere. What Europe and America did to their women is nothing. And let us not be very proud of our ‘dowry culture’ that burnt brides alive. If this is not for your bad mouthing a girl, I would have certainly took it miles.

                  • August 14, 2009 3:43 am

                    If your culture says calling fellow humans as Monkeys than stick to your culture.Do you mean anyone travelling beside you and you dont like them then they become rogues/monkeys for you.It doesn’t upsets me but it shows the behaviour of the person.

                    ” But you take the freedom to judge a girl’s integrity, whom you never met.”
                    I didn’t judged her integrity.I am saying she cant complain as she couldn’t receive any help.She has to find it out what made so many fellow male passengers unable to help her.You can’t demand help.help is voluntary.Still you cant judge people who dont help.

                    So Naveen, Your statement is incorrect about me being logical or not.

                    “I can suggest you one thing -your prejudices about ‘urban behavior’ and ‘bus seat incident’ doesn’t apply everywhere.”
                    I dont have any prejudice about ” Urban behavior”. I myself born and raised in Urban city.And i really become a rural person when i am in rural village or a town guy when i am in a small town.I Found most of the indians doesn’t behave well when they go to rural villages or towns.Specially Urban educated girls feel some superiority complex and generate unnecessary attention in rural places & end up getting molested like this.

                    If you observe the girl,she repeatedly comparing with bangalore.saying this never happens in bangalore.

                    I am not proud of our dowry culture.I dont approve it.Similarly i don’t approve Indian girls depending on Indian Guys also either monetary wise or for any mode of help.They should be independent.

                    I dont know why you are feeling i am bad mouthing a girl ? This is crap your fav word. And you approve the word Monkey being called for a fellow human.Do you approve this kind of usage ?

                    • August 14, 2009 5:47 am

                      Kumar, I have been traveling and have been unable to react to your comments. All I can is that I am a little taken aback at your comments. I think Naveen has articulated my thoughts well. However if you cannot see the logic of what he said, I cannot say anything more. And yes I too approve the word monkey. On second thoughts, I dont. Its an insult to monkeys who do not harrass the females the way these boys did!! I would say even calling these boys gorrillas is an insult to gorrillas. Males who harrass women are much much worse than these poor animals. Monkey is a very mild word.Real monkeys, like real men, who rescue females who are in trouble. Any human being needs help, whether it is because she is male or female. If these boys were teasing another boy, perhaps raping him, would that be considered male help?????
                      And yes one should judge people who don’t help. I think they are creeps! There, I have judged them.

                    • Vinod permalink
                      August 14, 2009 11:13 am

                      “Specially Urban educated girls feel some superiority complex and generate unnecessary attention in rural places & end up getting molested like this”

                      Kumar, even if the girl has a superiority complex over people in rural areas does it justify the molestation to “teach her a lesson”? Is drawing attention to oneself a moral license to molest? Is that what you’re saying – that sexual harassment is a justifiable recompense for haughtiness ? Or

                      If you’re saying that it is so in the eyes of rural people, have you not cast rural folks in a terribly bad moral light? And even if that moral characterization is a social fact, is it not the moral duty and burden of the rural folks to lift themselves out of that?

                      Vinod, you have articulated something that I wanted to. My experience is that when a city girl goes to a rural place, like travels in a bus with rural men, they are intimidated and keep away. In fact I have experienced this first hand. And all research points to the fact that men do not harass women who they feel intimidated by. Unfortunately some people think that bollywood is real life, where “haughty” girls are taught a lesson. In real life, men, particularly country men are very wary of city girls. It is the urban cheapsters who are the worst molesters, either spoilt children of the rich, or perhaps petty criminals, or perhaps wannabes. These are not afraid of smart city girls. – Nita

                    • Vinod permalink
                      August 14, 2009 6:15 pm

                      Nita, your insights to my questions at kumar is most appreciated.

                      Kumar, I believe we are having a communication problem. You got my first question correctly, but your answers to the others indicate that your not quite understanding my questions. I don’t think I can work that problem out in the comments section. Your answer over here could easily be taken the wrong way. I almost did till I tried to get the spirit of your response from the analogy you gave about the gold bracelet.

                      “If a girl feel that she can handle people after drawing attention towads her than its her wish.But she can’t complain after getting raped or molested.See, if i wear some expensive gold bracelet and say its the people around me who has to protect my gold bracelet and its very expensive.Does this sound well ?”

                      Let me work with your analogy. Even if someone were to wear an expensive gold bracelet and draw attention to oneself, does it legitimize the act of stealing the gold bracelet? Is the thief justified in taking it? Furthermore, is there anything in perplexed’s post that gave you the impression that she was “advertising” to be molested?

                    • August 14, 2009 6:56 pm

                      Vinod,

                      “Even if someone were to wear an expensive gold bracelet and draw attention to oneself, does it legitimize the act of stealing the gold bracelet? Is the thief justified in taking it?”
                      Do you mean the people around has to protect the Gold bracelet one is wearing..?
                      Did i say that there exists a legitimate right for the people around to steal the Gold bracelet. No ..na.

                      Okay let me put it this way,We need to protect ourselves our belongings and whan we own.You can’t complain no one had helped me in protecting my belongings.

                      I didn’t approved or supported the molestation anywhere in my points.My point of discussion is the cause of molestation.What made the girls unable to get the entire bus of guys or the 4 other women support.Atleast they should have won the support of a single guy in the bus.

                      Nita, I appreciate for your statement elsewhere in the discussion saying ” Thankfully the world is full of men who will help women and give equal respect too, because they understand what a woman wants. Respect and protection within reasonable limits.”

                      ” Furthermore, is there anything in perplexed’s post that gave you the impression that she was “advertising” to be molested?”
                      I had given in my second statement itself when i asked the question to “Perplexed” You can read it here under.

                      “””””””2) Are you & your friends are the only women in the Bus ?
                      ANS;“2. NO. There were just 4 others. If we were just us does that give them the right to molest us or do whatever it is that they want???? ”
                      My answer: No, That doesn’t give any right to molest as there are less females in a Bus ..But it sure gives a hint that one (femlae lonely passengers) must be more alert and in the entire journey one must maintain calm and shouldn’t attract any attention from others. “””””””””

                      Question is not about advertising.When you understand its night time and with just 4 women passengers than we should be more alert.You can’t expect safety in these circumstances.Its common sense.You need to act sensibly and get rid of molestation.

                    • August 14, 2009 10:06 pm

                      @Nita,
                      “My experience is that when a city girl goes to a rural place, like travels in a bus with rural men, they are intimidated and keep away.”

                      You feel rural men wont fantasize about city girls sexually.I dont know from where you got this understanding.The class divide is like a ladder.A rural girl or boy will fantasise about a town boy or girl or anyone from beyond.similarly a town girl or boy will fantasise about a city guy or girl.similarly a city girl or guy will fantasise about a metro guy or girl.A metro guy will fansise about a foreigner or say a blonde ..thats the order we can’t deny these aspirations.Rural people will fantasize more about city girls.That doesn’t make
                      them inferiror for having a fantasy its natural.infact you can read alot about more international articles specially about urban-rural divide.The most scary future for india is rural people revolt.Its not very far.

                      “In fact I have experienced this first hand. And all research points to the fact that men do not harass women who they feel intimidated by.”
                      We should be generous enough that we shouldn’t feel that a rural person got initimidated.Even if it happens.Being urban educated person is no way better than a rural person.

                      “Unfortunately some people think that bollywood is real life, where “haughty” girls
                      are taught a lesson. In real life, men, particularly country men are very wary of city girls.”
                      I don’t agree with you.When my mom use to send us to our village for holidays she use to make special traditional clothes for us. And use to give all precautions to be taken.As we have to just behave like rural people noway should show any pride of being from a city.

                      ” It is the urban cheapsters who are the worst molesters, either spoilt children of the rich, or perhaps petty criminals, or perhaps wannabes. These are not afraid of smart city girls”.
                      This is absolutly wroung.Molesters can be anywhere you need to behave in a place where you are as per the traditions and local culture.

                • August 14, 2009 10:35 am

                  @Kumar:GROW UP! I don’t think you understood the essence of the post or the discussion here. And you are right! Calling them monkeys was not right. They are worse. My bad.

                  @Naveen: thank god! there is one you to counter every one kind of Mr.kumar! Makes me feel a lot better🙂

                  • August 14, 2009 11:09 am

                    Nita,

                    “And yes I too approve the word monkey. ”
                    Well, this thought is not at all correct.& This set of mind can make the situations worse.
                    whom all you will like calling monkeys ? & How many people are monkeys in this world ?
                    Can you list people whom do you think they are monkeys ?

                    If you start callling people with some name and you feel satisfied rather looking for a solution than it is your wish.

                    “On second thoughts, I dont. Its an insult to monkeys who do not harrass the females the way these boys did!! I would say even calling these boys gorrillas is an insult to gorrillas. Males who harrass women are much much worse than these poor animals”
                    Why you feel only boys harass females.Girls also harass boys in all ways.Its both ways.

                    “Real monkeys, like real men, who rescue females who are in trouble.”
                    You mean Real men are the one who rescues females when in trouble ?
                    Than like real female monkeys or gorillas So do you mean Real women are one who rescue the men when they are in touble ?

                    “Any human being needs help, whether it is because she is male or female. If these boys were teasing another boy, perhaps raping him, would that be considered male help?????”
                    helping a humanbeing is fine but there shouldn’t be any labels for that like since i am a female i should be extended help.Further one shouldn’t complain i am a helpless female and i was not extended help from anyone.You mean if this girl is being raped she has to wait for a male help or a bollywood hero rather its better to place a call to police immidiately and handle the the rapists along with her friends…Why do you want to name a help ? male help/female help. We are in 2oth century.

                    “And yes one should judge people who don’t help. I think they are creeps! There, I have judged them.”
                    It will be illogical to judge in onego that in the entire bus the 40 + guys didn’t extended the help to these girls so, you want to judge them as per your blood pressure🙂.It will never solve the problem.It will be for good, if we start analysing what made so many people on one side and 4 girls on other side.remember there are some 4 other girls also.

                    Kumar, after reading your reply I think you did not understand the gist of what I said. I don’t see any problem if some guys on the bus had offered to exchange places with the girls, one is not necessarily asking anyone to confront the rogues in human form. why, decent people do so even for minor things. I have met people on trains who will oblige just so that families will sit together. So I think that the behavior of co-passengers was improper and that they are creeps.
                    Also I think that to expect women to rescue a man from other men is something that I find really an odd expectation. When are not equal in physical strength and even in sports this is acknowledged. But because today women are asking for equality in many things, you feel they should also defend themselves physically and not ask for a man’s help!! Thankfully the world is full of men who will help women and give equal respect too, because they understand what a woman wants. Respect and protection within reasonable limits. And this is not about bashing up guys bollywood style but real life. Teasing and molestation in public (which is what the post is about), where one guy is doing it and there are 25 watching!! I think its shameful. In bollywood movies there is one man who beats up 25 people, and in real life even 25 or 10 men cannot stop a molester or teaser??
                    And you say girls tease boys in the sexual way (this post is about eve-teasing and molestation, remember) but frankly I find this statement of yours quite false. I have personally not heard of boys being groped in buses by girls, boys or boys being teased with obscenities by girls. – Nita

                    • August 14, 2009 7:28 pm

                      @Nita
                      “….when a city girl goes to a rural place, like travels in a bus with rural men, they are intimidated and keep away…” Hear!!! Hear!!! I was one of them few years ago😀 😀

                      Also,
                      “….I have personally not heard of boys being groped in buses by girls, boys or boys being teased with obscenities by girls. – Nita…”
                      Now now Nita, this is not totally true!!! 😛 😉

                  • August 14, 2009 11:42 am

                    @perplexed
                    “GROW UP! I don’t think you understood the essence of the post or the discussion here. And you are right! Calling them monkeys was not right. They are worse. My bad.”

                    I don’t want to grow to that backward indian model where a indian female waits for the help of a indian male.Okay, you feel satisfied just calling some people as monkeys than its your wish.You need to face lot many monkeys in your life time.And i dont think rather all girls are like waiting for a brave male help.If you follow this model you have to face this kind of situation in future numerous times in your life.Perhaps their might be situations where just calling them Monkeys wont help you in return.

                    One of my friend is very pretty and beautiful.She works as a doctor in Rural Andhra.And she is very young when she started.She too faced problem like you.She started understanding the behaviour of the person who wants to molest her, tease her, or harass her.I was very angry i felt like killing all those male guys who are harassing her.She is very intelligent girl.She understood some of the reasons why these people are behind her.She changed her dress style.She extended more compassion towards these people.She never use to see
                    them in bad light rather see them as equals they are of low caste, ugly looking,economically backward,never had a split face for them.Things changed in no time.people started respecting her including elders.it was great learning from her.She is a women who doesn’t wait for some male to help nor she never thinks she need a help of someone to handle these kind of situations.She travels all alone even in the Midnight also in India.

                    “@Naveen: thank god! there is one you to counter every one kind of Mr.kumar! Makes me feel a lot better ”🙂 Hope next time you wont wait for naveen kind of a person to help you again in a bus on one scary night.Okay That is sarcastic.

                    • August 14, 2009 12:23 pm

                      @Vinod

                      ” even if the girl has a superiority complex over people in rural areas does it justify the molestation to “teach her a lesson”?”
                      No, it wont justify. I agree with you.

                      ” Is drawing attention to oneself a moral license to molest? Is that what you’re saying – that sexual harassment is a justifiable recompense for haughtiness ? Or”
                      No,i don’t approve this. If a girl feel that she can handle people after drawing attention towads her than its her wish.But she can’t complain after getting raped or molested.See, if i wear some expensive gold bracelet and say its the people around me who has to protect my gold bracelet and its very expensive.Does this sound well ?

                      “And even if that moral characterization is a social fact, is it not the moral duty and burden of the rural folks to lift themselves out of that?”
                      Don’t make any generalizations.When you are in rural place you have to behave well with them to get along with rural people.You can’t show you urban attitude or antics.

                      “If you’re saying that it is so in the eyes of rural people, have you not cast rural folks in a terribly bad moral light?”
                      You need to treat them as equals and with no superiority complex.I havn’t shown them in bad light.if you show your urban antics you have to face the music.Thats truth.

      • Lakshmi permalink
        August 14, 2009 2:41 pm

        This brings me to a related topic. I think pervasive sexual harassment as prevails in India is a direct fall-out of a system that restricts sex to marriage. Western men do not look at your body no matter what you wear; while most indian men do – even the decent ones. I think free sex frees men from sexual frustration. Of course women can be frustrated too. Only they don’t harass others because of this.

        • rags permalink
          August 14, 2009 5:31 pm

          “If a girl feel that she can handle people after drawing attention towads her than its her wish.But she can’t complain after getting raped or molested.”

          Kumar, Apparently education and degrees don’t make an impact on some.

    • ruSh.Me permalink
      August 14, 2009 11:28 am

      LOL..

      “We just cant demand freedom at all places in this world.”

      Well, then we better go back to stone age, no rules, no laws, no freedom.. Hai naa!!

      • August 14, 2009 11:49 am

        okay, experience the freedom in any downtown going around in the midnight.No age is immune.Its the way we behave and the way we get it.

        • ruSh.Me permalink
          August 17, 2009 11:06 am

          Hmm, so you mean to imply that girls who are killed even before they are born or the new-brides who are burnt for dowry, GET IT because they behaved (happen to BE a girl) or behaved un-culturally (did not bring satisfying dowry) IS justified…

          Men drink and drive, molest and pass comments.. Would you say its bad behavior?? How should those men be punished?? OR you think they were completely NORMAL??

          Today’s news, http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Sikh-priest-films-woman-taking-bath/articleshow/4897989.cms Apparently, the woman SHOULD have taken care about locking windows and doors keeping aside her FAITH in a RELIGIOUS PLACE but then granthi is NOT to be blamed, the woman WAS ASKING for IT by taking a bath??

  24. August 14, 2009 12:20 am

    I am from Chennai and have experienced so much harassment myself or have seen girls getting harassed. I have done my part by helping or screaming out loud, but you are right…men and people who walk around looking for action do not want to do anything. They just want to see and act ignorant or just ignore thanking god that we are not related to them! Bastards…they do not know that their sisters or mothers are also getting meted with the same treatment in another part of the town and other Bastards are not out to help them.

    The other thing with India is that we do not discuss these issues with family because we are ashamed of it. I always did and made sure my brothers and my mother knew what exactly happened and it helped because they supported me and made me want to be more empowered…I wish parents would help their daughters.

    I wish men wud stop harassing us!!!

  25. August 14, 2009 6:04 am

    ART, I agree, we do not usually discuss these things and many men are under the impression that only “other” women are molested. They think their own demurely clad women are not molested!! So they blame the victims as you can see in the comment section here. Its time all of us women came out and complained loudly to our own men about the treatment by other men. I too when I was growing up was too ashamed to tell my father or even mother. I was molested umpteem times before the age of 14, mostly when I was in my school uniform while traveling by public bus. I wasn’t even pretty then! I mean, I had a face full of pimples!!😀
    But thankfully the men in my family, although I never shared my experiences with them, do not think that dress is connected with molestation. They feel it is the twisted mindset of perverts which makes them behave like this. Someone close to me (male) had a bad experience in a men’s compartment in a local train in Mumbai. He told me that perverts are everywhere. That doesn’t mean that my friend ever stopped traveling by train, or started wearing a burkha !!

    • Vinod permalink
      August 14, 2009 11:16 am

      Nita, do you think the culture of gender segregation in India goes some way in objectifying women in the minds of men? I have found feminine company to be very civilizing and spiritually uplifting. This was so only after I could overcome my shyness and prejudice about women that had grown in me throughout my childhood which was steeped in the segregation culture.

      Vinod, I think its a vicious circle. It is when women are objectified that certain segregation becomes necessary, this perpetuates the vicious circle because men and women do not understand each other and only see other as sexual beings, not human beings. I think the cause of objectification of women is religion. The more religious the country is, the less women are respected. Any religion. Anyway, this is just my opinion! – Nita

      • rags permalink
        August 14, 2009 3:02 pm

        Vinod, Very true. Boys and girls grow up having little contact with each other and have unrealistic attitudes to each other. Girls being girls are equipped with better emotional maturity and by the time they grow into women they kind of figure things out. Can’t say the same thing for boys. Besides in rural areas men are taught right from birth that they can control women and women are inferior to them and can be devalued. Both women and men internalise these values.

      • rags permalink
        August 14, 2009 5:25 pm

        Very interesting point Nita. Could be because religion places a lot of restrictions on a person’s sex life. Also religion has this unique ability of deifying women (as mother godess , sacred feminine etc) and also simultaneously degrading them. I’m speaking of religion as a separate entity but man invented religion didn’t he? Religion is only a reflection of a society’s collective conscience. Taking a Freudian viewpoint I’d say man’s basic impulses are inherently destructive.

    • Lakshmi permalink
      August 14, 2009 2:36 pm

      But then, how open is the typical indian family to a host of issues? How many parents would be open to a son or a daughter reporting subtle sexual abuse by a (respected) family member?

      And I think these things have spiraled out of control too. The only thing parents can do for a girl is get a chauffeur-driven car as I’ve known some parents to do. There’s nothing they can do to change the society we live in. They are as helpless as their daughters.

      • vasudev permalink
        August 14, 2009 2:48 pm

        with an old old driver or preferably, a female driver. there are many cases of it girls getting raped in bangalore/delhi by their drivers.

      • Vinod permalink
        August 14, 2009 7:01 pm

        Lakshmi, openness of communication on sex will go a long way in maturing boys up. Parents need to talk to their children about sex and the contexts that make it healthy and what does not. Instead, we’re left to bollywood and porn to figure things out, both of which are not exactly the very enlightening. Not just that, emotional maturity is not well taught by parents who themselves are quite ‘hung up’ emotionally. It would be cathartic for them to bounce off their life experiences on relationships with their children.

    • Vinod permalink
      August 14, 2009 6:03 pm

      Nita, Rags thanks for your insights. Nita, following your insight that there is a vicious cycle, I think that any society fails to deal with sexual problems in a mature manner. Societies come up with quick fix solutions. Segregation is one such solution. These quick fixes invariably over time result in some side effects. For an analogous scenario, I can think of American schools coming with ‘no hugging’ policies to prevent child abuse by teachers, just because some rotten apples among teachers, use the simple hug as an avenue to abuse children. The result of such policies don’t quite help the growing adult and child depression in that society, some even manifesting as the disturbing behavioural pathology called objectophilia.

  26. vasudev permalink
    August 14, 2009 10:49 am

    so where are we now? is there any consensus on the issue? i think someone needs to balance things out because it is either too leftist or too rightist and there is no referee!

  27. ahumanbean permalink
    August 14, 2009 11:17 am

    The commentator calling himself “Vasudev” said, above, ‘have no objection to that. reality is reality. for everything else please refer to kumar’s comments below’

    !!!

    “Vasudev” = “kumar ” :- —

    Major pre-validation of a comment yet to be made is a red flag, Perplexed. Best ignore.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 14, 2009 12:59 pm

      hello bean…kindly speak in simple language. yours truly does not watch bean jokes. thanks.

  28. vasudev permalink
    August 14, 2009 1:12 pm

    there seems to be a psyche here to judge: ‘essentially men are bad but bad men are very bad’.

    while i do not endorse female molestation in any way i do not rule out possibilities of male horniness surfacing now and then and rustic men exhibiting it a bit more blandly due to lack of finesse.

    i am entirely with perplexed in sympathy for her bad experience and as i already admitted, kerala is not the place for girls to visit in public transport because there seems to be something wrong with the kerala atmosphere.

    kumar’s reaction comes out of perplexed’s reaction to kumar but what kumar has asked also can be added to the question database on what should be a travel warning while travelling to kerala. we can always discuss and accept or refuse what we think is required or not required.

    as to mr. bean, i have only one thing to say. that saying something should not have happened or should never happen is all very good, wishful thinking. the executor does not waste time dreaming but he plans and executes. i hope we generate ‘executives’.

    vasu, there is one word that is important and that is “control.” But because people don’t have it we have robbers and rapists and molesters. All people who are the dregs of society. I don’t know why you think that women think that men are bad. Despite my experiences all I know is that I love men and I love them because I have a wonderful relationship with my father, my brother and my husband. That is how women form their opinions of men, not by experiences of some cheap criminals on the streets. Also there was a time in Mumbai when onlookers came to the rescue of women. The fabric of Mumbai has changed now although even today in some areas men will thrash the guy who molests a woman. Right now I am in chennai and I think the men here really respect women. – Nita

    • August 14, 2009 2:15 pm

      Vasu,
      My comments are not a reaction to perplexed’s being rude or not.We can’t go on defining each humanbeing.If you read my comments i had given option for “perplexed” being rude.Its her way of dealing.
      Even in the west females face males who make sexual advances.But they dont handle the way some of our indian females or the way ‘Perplexed” handle making a scene out of it and blaming males for the entire outcome.Not all indian females also handle the same way as “perplexed” & end up getting molested.Smart girls handle without making noise out of it and have a pleasant journey.I had given the example of my Doctor friend.
      As we are in the modern age Indian females can’t depend on males for everything nor they can complain saying no male co-passenger had helped them or offered them the front seats.males & females should be equals & shouldn’t complain of them being women.Getting others help should be last option.Atlast we are all humans.that too when we feel we are weak enough to handle the given situation.
      We got a reservation system if you don’t get a front seat due to poor planning or being late, why blame a male co-passenger or travel company management.Males also like to travel in front seats.Is it polite disturbing male co-passengers requesting for front seat.

      • ruSh.Me permalink
        August 14, 2009 6:23 pm

        Hmm..

        Girls should plan ahead,
        Girls should not complain,
        Girls should not make noises,
        Girls should not depend upon men,
        Girls should be equal to men,

        And girls getting molested is girl’s fault!!

        I think all of us (girls) should embrace Islam and go live in Afghanistan under the Taliban rule.. That ways when we will get 40 lashes for wearing trousers or get shot in the head for going out with an unknown man, at least we will not wonder, “What did I do wrong”!!😀

        • August 14, 2009 7:37 pm

          Dear Rashmi 😀
          Some comments:

          Things you listed out are not rules for girls. Sometimes they are necessary precautions. I will tell my sis/friend/GF same if she is going to some well known *rough* area.

          Girls should plan ahead: If you are not sure about safety in the place you are going to then you should really plan ahead.

          Girls should not complain: Why not?😀 Anyway, no one on earth can stop a girl from complaining about something she did not approve of. 😀😀

          Girls should not make noises: This is for Sound-Pollution. Maybe you took wrong meaning.

          Girls should not depend upon men: Well, you must have experienced it a lot, men are not reliable in most of things 😉

          Girls should be equal to men: You asked for it. 😛 😛

          And girls getting molested is girl’s fault!!: Well, this is a serious things and we have some more Great Philosophers and others (see comments longer than 10 lines above) 😀

          So Dear Rashmi, Plz don’t go to Afghanistan. I don’t want Taliban to move to India as refugees😀😀

        • August 14, 2009 7:57 pm

          @rushme,

          “And girls getting molested is girl’s fault!!”
          I am not saying girls are at fault getting being molested.I am pointing towards the way the situation is handled & which can avoid the molestation.

          “I think all of us (girls) should embrace Islam and go live in Afghanistan under the Taliban rule.. That ways when we will get 40 lashes for wearing trousers or get shot in the head for going out with an unknown man, at least we will not wonder, “What did I do wrong”!! ”

          I dont approve this.Indian girl should be modern and dynamic.She shouldn’t feel scared of anything.She should be equal to her male counterparts.Rather, She should plan for all kinds of environments and be victorious.Girls with patience and regard to fellow people will always come out of this kind of situations rather changing religion or thinking of past.

          • ruSh.Me permalink
            August 18, 2009 10:02 am

            Dear Kumar, Bolna bahut asaan hota hai, Nibhana utna hi kathin You are NOT a girl, thus you could NEVER understand the humiliation.. The only way to avoid molestation is to sit at home, alone..

            And then you say Indian girl should be dynamic, modern brave etc blah blah… and then you say Molestation is a method of teaching a lesson to these “modern babes”..

            Honestly, I can’t get you..

            LOL.. Girls with patience and regards are treated as doormat/wiping cloth/.. Nothing else (and I don’t think that your sense of humor got my last sentence)

            • August 18, 2009 8:10 pm

              “The only way to avoid molestation is to sit at home, alone.. ”
              I don’t approve it.You just need to take precautions in the night time not only india globally.Have a presence of mind and act sensibly and be confident & brave. Lot of girls handle in daily life infact boys also handle girls who make advances.
              You can see how irfan or dhoni or any other males had handled the crazy girls who make advances towards them in the name of a peck.Check todays news for Irfan pathan.For the same scenario for a female actress or a celebrity if any crazy male fan make a advance than their will be a big brawl for that.This is what i mean handling of the situation.

              “Molestation is a method of teaching a lesson to these “modern babes”..”
              I never approved molestation.If i had you can quote my sentence.If you read again what i said is urban-rural,literate-illeterate,high caste-low caste etc or the behavior of a urban girl in between rural people ….might be one of the reasons for the teasing or molestation.But none in my sentences/comments i had supported it.

              “Girls with patience and regards are treated as doormat/wiping cloth”
              My wife is having lot of patience.Her patience is an asset and a strong foundation for my family.later i too developed but still i can’t reach her level/maturity.
              I feel its opposite girls who dont have patience & regards and who are rude/arrogant will attract more people to make them use as a doormat/wiping cloth/toilet paper or a tissue.

      • Vinod permalink
        August 14, 2009 6:26 pm

        Kumar

        “Even in the west females face males who make sexual advances.But they dont handle the way some of our indian females or the way ‘Perplexed” handle making a scene out of it and blaming males for the entire outcome.Not all indian females also handle the same way as “perplexed” & end up getting molested.Smart girls handle without making noise out of it and have a pleasant journey.I had given the example of my Doctor friend.”

        I beg you to enlighten us – how is a sexual advance to be handled without making a scene out of it? You think sexual advances from strangers are a minor issue – not to be made a scene of? Goodness!!

        • rags permalink
          August 14, 2009 7:07 pm

          Its the Indian mentality of hide, hide and hide. People like Kumar would want victims of sexual harassment and rape be quiet about the whole matter and not make a big deal out of it so that their peace of mind is not disturbed. How dare a woman complain of harassment on a bus in the middle of the night?? It would disturb the sleep of other male passengers and that is a bigger tragedy that a woman getting humiliated and abused. I thought he was only racist and casteist but now I know better.

          • August 14, 2009 8:35 pm

            @Rags,
            “Its the Indian mentality of hide, hide and hide. People like Kumar would want victims of sexual harassment and rape be quiet about the whole matter and not make a big deal out of it so that their peace of mind is not disturbed.”
            No, i didn’t say to hide the matter but i said to handle the matter.That too a girl can handle herself.You can check my comments for vinod.

            ” How dare a woman complain of harassment on a bus in the middle of the night?? It would disturb the sleep of other male passengers and that is a bigger tragedy that a woman getting humiliated and abused. I thought he was only racist and casteist but now I know better.”
            What..? i am racist and casteist..?…. i cant say anything for you.Even if i want to be rude what i have to say to your baseless statements.This is the reason i never mentioned my caste also in the forum.

        • August 14, 2009 8:26 pm

          @ Vinod,

          “I beg you to enlighten us – how is a sexual advance to be handled without making a scene out of it? You think sexual advances from strangers are a minor issue – not to be made a scene of? Goodness!!”

          If you see in the west no one makes a scene out of the sexual advance made by a male.They just politely say they have a Boyfriend.Some times they show displeasure or they may say not interested.
          Normally the guy stops by than if still he is disturbing the girl.
          Than the girl just warns politely by than the matter settles.
          Imagine if the girl likes than there is no question of molestation and both may move forward for further…:)

          Comming to Indian scenario,
          The immidiate reaction of the indian girl (not the smart ones) getting molested is she may resist the male by slapping on the face.here Perplexed had used an umbrella as per her words.Which will aggravate the situation resulting in unpleasant quarrel.
          Or makeing noise so that fellow passengers understand what is happening.Than the person involved will get aggravate as he got a licence now as everyone knows whats happeneing.
          If no one is ready to interfere than the strength of the person involved will get doubled.
          So, to avoid this:
          She has to show her displeasure in a polite way with compassion saying she is not interested.
          For some indian girls where they just show their displeasure with the eyes saying sorry politely without hurting the ego of the guy. ( My aunt use to explain these ways to my cousin sister) resulting in a situation where the guy will automatically generate respect for her and will stop getting behind the girl.
          In some indian scenario’s some men are unstoppable than still with patience things can be handled.If the girl thinks of a brawl with him the result will be devastating experience.We can have a quarrel probably he might be uneducated or of poor back ground where he is making his advances after showing displeasure.
          Still there can be polite communication and conveying her displeasure.
          than finally as the situation demands cops to be informed.
          I watch in TV also in some states people manhandle or take the law into their own hands again its not at all advisable specially when a girl is involved.& its inhuman also beating or somewhere nita mentioned bashing up the molester.

          See, the trick is love and compassion. handling the ego of the person involved that will alone can give result and make a better society.

          • rags permalink
            August 14, 2009 9:59 pm

            I salute the gutsy peasants of kerala. That’s the way it should be. Why should anyone be respected just because they are well dressed, speak English or worse belong to the upper caste? This is the way it should be, everyone should be treated equal immaterial of how many acres of land their great grandfather owned. I know, I sound like a raving commie. ( I am not talking about the treatment meted out to women. Only about how social stratfication has flattened in Kerala)

            • August 14, 2009 10:35 pm

              @ Rags,

              I had observed urban girls talking in english or any other language apart from local language loudly in rural villages/towns and endup with the local guys in a brawl, molestation & rape.

              Urban girls are no Goddess talking in english where the local people cant understand.Its impolite also for any girl to behave like this.When we visit a new place we should behave in low pitch and avoid any unwanted attention.

            • vasudev permalink
              August 14, 2009 10:35 pm

              rags,

              that’s why we nairs created communists out of the peasants (smile). and i am with you, entirely. i like the kerala of today except for its political games and uncontrolled horniness.

            • August 15, 2009 5:25 am

              rags, you dont sound like a commie. You sound like someone who has atleast glanced over the Constitution.🙂

              Which sadly does not seem to be the fact for many ‘educated’ Indians.😦

              (Adding Vikram’s latest comment on this post from here, dated 20the of Aug 09:

              Nita, you closed comments for the looking glass article, but have you heard of this party ?

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womanist_Party_of_India

              I dont think they have won any seats but that is the kind of mobilization Indian women need if they want to put Indian men in their place.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 14, 2009 9:35 pm

      chennai is indeed a place where people talk quite respectfully. that applies to the entire tamil nadu. and yes. they do respect women.

      nita. well…nice to be called ‘vasu’. it cuts short the name and saves typing energy and blog space (just joking. i feel nice when people call me vasu)

      nita..somewhere i saw your comment on villagers giving respect to town folk who are dressed differently. please DO NOT apply the yardstick to kerala. about 10 yrs ago some of my marathi friends visited my kerala home, got shocked to see our massive land holdings, saw my dad’s sprawling teak and rose wood framed 200 yr old three storied ‘tharavadu’ and were shell shocked when i introduced my very fair and indira gandhi style grandma who, being a matriculate, started talking to them in chaste english. they rightfully concluded that we were the ‘rajahs’ of the village (which was true anyway). but when i walked them to the taxi-stand they did not see even a single ‘peasano’ stopping to give me low stoops of greetings or bothering to step out of the way, despite my just conferred royalty or despite my angrezi attire or despite the lankiness of my handsome guests or despite our babblings in ‘angleyam’…

      so, that is kerala for you. people just don’t care who you are or what you are.

      my marathi friends soon lost their respect for me and remarked..in our villages we ARE really ROYAL!

      • rags permalink
        August 14, 2009 10:32 pm

        Yeah, tamils are quite respectful of strangers. But that is fast eroding away with the influx of North Indians (from the IT sector) who are bent on testing the patience of Tamils by talking in Hindi even if they know English. Tne only people who can cut them down to size are the auto drivers. These guys won’t take crap from anyone.

  29. August 14, 2009 6:11 pm

    Nita:
    “I don’t see any problem if some guys on the bus had offered to exchange places with the girls”
    I too dont see any problem if some guys offer for exchange of places.But you can’t demand being a female its my right to ask any guy your choice of seat when there is a reservation system in place or the implmentation authority of the transport system.You mean Guys doesn’t want to enjoy the front seat of a bus ? Remember, here there are 4 girls and they are not a family.

    “one is not necessarily asking anyone to confront the rogues in human form. why, decent people do so even for minor things. I have met people on trains who will oblige just so that families will sit together. So I think that the behavior of co-passengers was improper and that they are creeps.”

    You mean in this case of single girls they can be considered as family and single guys can’t be considered as family ?

    “Also I think that to expect women to rescue a man from other men is something that I find really an odd expectation. When are not equal in physical strength and even in sports this is acknowledged.”

    Men seeking woman’s help or women seeking mens help Gender never plays a role to just extend the needed help to other fellow humanbeing.Don’t think women are physically weak. Its a two-way relationship between any genders.Already we have Indian laws well in place to help indian women.I don’t know why you feel it odd to help a man.If you find you are not physically strong you can extend your courtesy/help in different manner which you are good in.

    So,in what ways do you mean a woman can extend her help to a man ?

    I will give an example when you board a flight you can see a western woman will never seek help to keep her hand baggage in place.When you observe a Indian woman she immidiately looks around to see any man who can help her with her baggage.You can evaluate yourself the gender equality.

    ” But because today women are asking for equality in many things, you feel they should also defend themselves physically and not ask for a man’s help!! ”
    I never feel so, women alone can’t survive nor men alone can survive in this world.Woman should have equal rights and she should be shoulder to shoulder with a man.But you can’t expect only men should extend help and woman should enjoy the help.We got 24 hours police you can just give a call anytime.If woman feels they can be well protected due to physical strength of a man than she should reciprocate.

    Do you mean a woman police officer shouldn’t handle cases of men as she is physically weak ? or she shouldn’t help the man in need of help as you feel she is woman and wait for a male police officer.Things have changed nita we are in 20th century and we got dynamic woman police officers like Kiran bedi and we got the three wings of defence who are having women platoons.i Don’t know how to convince you on this.For God sake dont say our women defence personnel are physically weak.

    ” Thankfully the world is full of men who will help women and give equal respect too, because they understand what a woman wants. Respect and protection within reasonable limits.”
    Exactly, i want to extract this statement from you.If a girl knows how to act sensibly than she can have a world full of men who are ready to help her.

    ” Teasing and molestation in public (which is what the post is about), where one guy is doing it and there are 25 watching!! I think its shameful. ”
    It depends why these 25 men are watching ? what made them not to help these girls and make them watch the molestation ? Here is the topic and answers these girls need to find.where they had gone wroung ?

    “and in real life even 25 or 10 men cannot stop a molester or teaser??”
    Single person ( man as per you ) can stop a molester.But i believe a single Woman also could have stopped this.In these instance tit-for-tat attitude wont work like calling them rouges or monkeys.It will aggravate the situation out of control.

    “And you say girls tease boys in the sexual way (this post is about eve-teasing and molestation, remember) but frankly I find this statement of yours quite false.”
    You can find lot of instances where men are degraded by women especially in India due to their financial status or color or their jobs or due to family background or caste or race or the way a guy dresses or just as they are not handsome .No need literally to tease physically.womens behaviour/looks are enough.The resultant attitude of some men will be what “perplexed” had experienced.We need to understand & counsel the behaviour of these kind of men rather calling them monkeys/rogues.As one of the comment of lakshmi who
    had pointed out it is ” I think pervasive sexual harassment as prevails in India is a direct fall-out of a system that restricts sex to marriage.”
    She is absolutely correct.Just being some fortunate people born in upper middle class or elite or upper class having a home and education and getting married.Not all Indians are fortunate like this.

    ” I have personally not heard of boys being groped in buses by girls, boys or boys being teased with obscenities by girls”
    You can check how the upper class girls behave and tease the lower class boys.I feel you havn’t came across these girls.You can find all teasing,obscenity everything from these girls.
    Example: Indian metro social clubs,Pubs, discos,Parties.

    • rags permalink
      August 14, 2009 10:10 pm

      Naveen, only one question. If someone steals your wallet would you stand there and give the thief lessons on compassion and tell him how you understand that only because of being born in a poor family he had to commit robbery and also blame yourself for carrying a tempting bulging wallet? Or would you take him to the police station?

      • August 15, 2009 1:20 am

        Good one, rags.🙂

      • Naveen permalink
        August 15, 2009 3:31 am

        Rags, Do you think that someone who doesn’t understand ‘the pain and mental agony of bullying’ would understand logic?

        Isn’t it a futile attempt to fill a leaking pot? It has to be fixed first- face a similar situation and heckled with questions about their role in the incident. All we can do till then is to learn how a woman should behave from the expert.

  30. August 14, 2009 7:49 pm

    of all kerala takes the cake for “eve teasing”. KPJ writes some of them on her blog Parel tank, http://pareltank.blogspot.com – it unravels kerala in black and white – the culture, the biases, the attitudes, the political scene, etc

    • vasudev permalink
      August 14, 2009 9:07 pm

      from the ‘dogs own country’? i always dreamt of starting a blog on kerla where i could give a travel advisory especially for the foriegners who visit there. that idea i had briefly put on net in 2002, when a few friends from us came to visit kerala and got cooped in the taj residency for three days due to an unscheduled and violent kerala bandh. looking with seething anger at the human dog chains carrying all sorts of flags and with fisted hands rhythemically moving up and down to the bark of the leading chain of white mundu clad lead dogs the idea suddenly struck me to create a blog titled: from dog’s own country’ when i witnessed a pair of strays barking at the competition. somehow since i am basically lazy and given to flitting interests i did not make the blog last more than the period of my anger.

  31. Naveen permalink
    August 15, 2009 12:49 am

    Vasu, How dare you? you take the entire credit to your own state. You might be making the claims because you don’t know that we(in Andhra) are the one who took care of the girls that escaped Kerala.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/City/Hyderabad/TDP-MLA-held-for-molesting-students/articleshow/4799035.cms

    We also have the distinction of being the state where girl students are axed(not just killed) in their classrooms if they don’t reciprocate ‘love’. If statistics is a proof, we are the state that have had the highest number of acid throwing incidents on female students the past year. Oh! you know -eve teasing is our fav. hobby. And you come competing Kerala aginst my land? And you might wonder how our state (where Sorojini Naidu and Durgabhai Deshmukh came from) made this unique distinction.

    Very Simple! We taughts our daughters to prostate to ‘THE MALE EGO’. We taught them how to behave infront of beastility -by begging. We taught them how to show compassion to ‘THE MAN’ -by not complaining. We made them believe that a guy automatically respects you if you smile at him in ‘compassion’, when they pull your pallu. If you want to know more ways, read the comments above. Don’t you think we don’t believe in ‘Human Rights’, we’ve all over the West and learnt a lot there. But we suspect if it applies to women. We are ready to argue(and preach if needed about the good behavior of women) as long as it takes. But we WILL NOT take even a mustard size moral from any one. Better, we want to spread these innovative ideas to subdue women pan-India. And all of you should help us out – to make ours a peaceful society (without complaints).

    My telugu friends think that I am a nutcase because I am a stay-home dad and work from home. My wife chases her dream -doing her Ph.D. I have a company of 10 other American Fathers, who think it is quite normal to change diapers all day long. I would never imagine an American (atleast) argue that Women should never receive any kind of help. The logic is simple – Man doesn’t do it all by himself -anytime. But we, in Swarna-Andhra-Pradesh, are ready to take only one part of the American story- the woman part(or the one thats suits our men). Absolutely not the man part. We, in the great telugu land admire the greatness of Kalpana Chawla, Kiran Majumdar, Indra Nooyi and Kiran Bedi to satisfy our own egos- and talk about shoulder-to-shoulder CRAP- but we will not peek into their lives and see what their male family members have done for them. No way!!!

    • vasudev permalink
      August 15, 2009 8:23 am

      sorry naveen!

      i just woke-up out of a very bad dream full of dogs and i thought i heard a whole truck load of dogs barking.

      getting back to life i realised that it was my neighboring society going full blast on a.r.rahman’s (‘sell dog india to the foreigner’ guy) number:

      ‘jai ho! jai ho!.

      repeated all over doesn’t it sound a lot like:

      ‘bhow-bhow’..’bhow-bhow’!

      (give it appropriate time gap in between and you would notice too) what a doggie day!

      anyway, happy independance day to you and all others here.

      time to dial no. 100, close their noisy shop and go back to sleep.

      will answer your interesting post later in the day when i get over my shocks and let my nutrients and proteins work on my sleep-deprived soul.

      • Naveen permalink
        August 15, 2009 8:44 am

        Oh! Happy Independence Day, Vasudev.

        Don’t bother to answer. You are only my prop(in this comment) to strike something hard on my side. Keep watching this! You will see more to come!

    • vasudev permalink
      August 15, 2009 11:27 am

      naveen.

      somtimes being 5000 yrs old can also act negative for the simple reason that you have carried your burden of legacies all those 5000 yrs and cannot suddenly find any means to drop them, because they have grown deep roots within you.

      let’s wait another 5000 years for cleaning.

      on the other hand, the usa you talk of has no such leagcies of culture to boast of. they are a people who came from different countries, different strata, decided to live life fully from day one and did just that. but i cannot forget that the americans had some of the worst cases of racism and aparthied offences.

      using my shoulder to fire your gun is an offence! (smile)

  32. Naveen permalink
    August 15, 2009 2:10 pm

    Kumar,
    I am sure you will come back to enlighten us. I have framed a few questions for you so that we can understand why ‘urban girls’ repel you. And this is all to help you- to understand your ‘personal behavior’. (Yes, as you mentioned- help is voluntary.) The questions are 5 each in two sets (I know the format is different from the one you asked Perplexed). This is the first set. Because you don’t show any sign of ‘masculinism’ and you believe immensely in equality, I am sure -you will take this quiz.
    1) How often do you brush your teeth?
    2) How often do you take a bath?
    3) How often do you change your clothes?
    4) Do you use a perfume/deodorant?
    5) Did anyone tell you on your face that ‘you stink’ recently?

    After you answer all these questions, I will give you the second set of more ‘personal’ questions. Meanwhile I will judge you on the basis of these questions. Many people here will also help you make changes in your ‘personal behavior’.

    “Though my questions might be absurd to you. But they matter alot.”

    And by the way, don’t forget to call your ‘very beautiful cousin sister in the US’ to this discussion forum. She will be very proud at the way, you take our BULLCRAP and take the efforts to spread it all over India.

    • August 16, 2009 9:45 am

      @Dear Rags,
      ” I thought he was only racist and casteist but now I know better.”
      I really don’t know what made you to say me as racist.I never made any
      comments degrading any Race.I have a equal respect to all races.If i am a racist i would have never gone for a interracial marriage.I am an
      Aryan by race basically a north Indian settled in south india from
      generations.My wife is a caucasian,Nordic woman from Finland.We are
      happily married with 5 children.4 Girls and one boy child.We are
      expecting our new baby this october.We respect all races and we never
      showed any disrespect to any race nor we feel any pride of our race.

      And regarding you saying me as a casteist.What made you to say so ?.We
      follow Orthodox Hinduism (brahminical) as my wife is inclined towards
      orthodox Hindusim and she do vedic studies.We both share a great
      fascination for Hindusim and different castes.We respect & love all
      castes.Each caste in hinduism is having its uniqueness and importance.
      I can’t say anything more for you.

      @Dear Naveen,
      “I have framed a few questions for you so that we can understand why
      ‘urban girls’ repel you.”
      I never said in my discussion that urban girls repel me.I said in one
      instance in forum i am born and brought-up in Hyderabad,India.Its a Urban city.I understood why you are asking these questions & your urban attitude.
      But Naveen we shouldn’t see rural people in this “Bad light”.
      If we start looking at class divide this way their is no end.Always a
      rich person will exist for every person.
      Since most of the urban indian people have this attitude we have those
      acid atacks and eve-teasing in India.There will be no end for this.
      My first child had entered into her teens last year.She is very pretty
      and faces similar people who wants to tease her or whatever.But she
      never expects any male help or wait for any help.She handles herself in polite way.Actually she is more pretty than other indian girls but very few boys around her make attempts to tease her.Very few she faces and she handles them.The credit goes to her attitude of equality towards all.I dont think it is because of our upbringing but because of her own behaviour.

      “Don’t forget to call your ‘very beautiful cousin sister in the US’ to
      this discussion forum.”
      See,I refer Nita’s blog to most my friends,family and colleagues for
      various reasons.Its their wish i really don’t force anyone.I love Nita
      blogs because the analysis is always indepth.And she touches most of my favorite subjects and i comment occasionally on my fav posts.

      See, i don’t say you are wroung you can have your attitude i respect
      your views and no need to endorse my views.I feel the discussion is to
      understand people.But i am convinced the rich-poor or urban-rural
      divide will continue for ages.Education cant bring a change.Its the
      behaviour and attitude alone can bring a change.

      Regarding Gender equality,I expressed my views and made my point.

      I am on my weekend travel with my family seeing your post i thought i will address you.

      • Naveen permalink
        August 16, 2009 11:13 am

        “But Naveen we shouldn’t see rural people in this “Bad light”. If we start looking at class divide this way their is no end.Always a rich person will exist for every person. Since most of the urban indian people have this attitude we have those acid atacks and eve-teasing in India.There will be no end for this.”

        Oh! Oh! Oh! Hold it right there. Don’t you make me a Rural-hater and a Poor-hater now. By what you argued for two days, I thought you are 25-30 yr old frustated guy trying to sting a random girl. Don’t you make similar unproved assumptions about me. If we meet in person, I (or Perplexed) might turn out to be a more ‘compassionate’ Rural-lover and Poor-lover than you are. Give the idea a chance.

        And have a nice trip!

        • vasudev permalink
          August 16, 2009 11:16 am

          glad that you two guys ended it all with lotsa love, hugging and tears. am relieved!

        • August 16, 2009 1:17 pm

          @Naveen,
          “Don’t you make me a Rural-hater and a Poor-hater”
          I didn’t say you are one.Your questions definetly shows your urban attitude.why do you feel rural people dont have shower or poor people dont have shower.Infact they get more time than urban people and most of them have a swim in the country side lake for hours..not like the urban stink covered with a few min of quick shower and than stinking deodarant.

          “now. By what you argued for two days, I thought you are 25-30 yr old frustated guy trying to sting a random girl.”
          BTW i am 35 old.So,when you face a 25-30 year frustrated or say person who is not handsome or person who cant afford a family or marriage or couldn’t have a reasonable social life …than don’t you feel he needs more help & extra care in the society.

          “Don’t you make similar unproved assumptions about me. If we meet in person, I (or Perplexed) might turn out to be a more ‘compassionate’ Rural-lover and Poor-lover than you are. Give the idea a chance.”
          I don’t make any assumptions nor i have any regarding you or Perplexed.I make only from what you talk.With the kind of tool(Blog & comments) we are interacting here we can only make an idea or judge a person seeing the kind of language we use and the kind of attitude we carry and the facts we present.You can see Nita’s Net Etiquette for further details.In real what we are is for ourself.Who am i to give a chance ?

          • Naveen permalink
            August 18, 2009 10:55 am

            “I didn’t say you are one………..than stinking deodarant.”

            1) Do you know where I was born or brought up?, where I lived in India most of my life? my association/attitude with rural people/life? -No.
            2) I remember you from a previous post that you are from Hyderabad and I did not assume you to be a Rural guy as you think. And I did not use the word ‘Rural’ anywhere in my previous comments. You are applying associative law but it doesn’t apply here.
            Hence both your assumptions here are false.

            “BTW i am 35 old…………he needs more help & extra care in the society.”
            By frustated, did I say ‘sexually frustated’ or say anything about marriage? -No. This is another false assumption. In all these assumptions, you are desperately trying to rub on me a set of your preconceived “Urban attitude” characters -without sound proof.

            “I don’t make any assumptions …….. for ourself.”
            I did not defy the rules of this blog. If your questions to ‘Perplexed’ were respectful, mine should also be.

            “Who am I to give a chance?”
            I agree with only this part.

            Now that you mentioned you did not marry Indian and also mentioned that you have ‘great regard’ for European women but seem to be quite opinionated about ‘Indian women’ all through your comments, I’d like to know more about these views of yours. Be eloborate so I don’t make any assumptions myself.

            • August 18, 2009 9:46 pm

              Naveen:

              I told you earlier i can only make about you and your attitude from what you talk.

          • vasudev permalink
            August 18, 2009 2:52 pm

            agree with you 100%, kumar. one should show respect to the poor and the under-priviledged and take care of the needy. this is as important as protesting against casteism. no urbanite has a right to heckle the ruralite. nice thoughts.

      • rags permalink
        August 16, 2009 12:23 pm

        Kumar I called you racist and casteist based on your replies on another topic “South India is more developed…..” on this blog. Anyway, let’s forget this whole thing, no hard feelings.

        • August 16, 2009 1:35 pm

          @Rags,
          We got settled in Hyderabad from generations.So, We speak telugu at home.We follow Andhra/Telugu culture at home.We are as good as south indians.So in that topic i commented regaring the Non-Hindi languages and the Hindi usage in non-hindi speaking places.I stand by what i said in that topic.Its your problem if some replies had made you thought me as racist or casteist.I doubt you can show ever i made any derogratory statements regarding other’s race or caste.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 16, 2009 11:29 am

      hi naveen..r u married?

      • Naveen permalink
        August 16, 2009 12:03 pm

        Yes, Vasudev. My daughter will take a trip to Munnar in a couple of decades. You better fix Kerala by then.

        And by asking questions like this, don’t give my wife a reason to cut me off this blog🙂

    • August 16, 2009 2:28 pm

      @Naveen:
      “to understand your ‘personal behavior’. (Yes, as you mentioned- help is voluntary.) ”

      Ofcourse, Help is always voluntary.You can’t demand help.Help is something which should come on from our heart or after hearing a plea.

      Globally,i am sure my statement is correct.

      • Naveen permalink
        August 18, 2009 12:14 pm

        Contradiction! Contradiction!

        “So,when you face a 25-30 year frustrated or say person who is not handsome or person who cant afford a family or marriage or couldn’t have a reasonable social life …than don’t you feel he needs more help & extra care in the society. “

        • August 18, 2009 7:28 pm

          Naveen,

          I am asking you that question Don’t you feel he needs more help ?

          Ofcourse, Help is voluntary in any given situation.

          It can’t be one-way.How you make the society …it will give it back to us.

          • Naveen permalink
            August 18, 2009 11:50 pm

            Absolutely, the oppressed should be helped, irrespective of who they are. And I think it is an obligation for everyone to help, as much as we can. When you asked Perplexed those questions about the profile of the ‘Monkeys’, you sounded like the minister, who when told about a rape -immediately asks about the caste of the victim and perpetrator. How does it matter? Why should anyone be respected and get ‘compassions’ for the offense they did because they belong to ‘so and so’ profile?

            What I tried to bring to your attention is that you keep saying that Rural people and Poor people are the one who suffer oppression. But you are essentially neglecting the fact that women are the one, who take the biggest brunt. You may say nice things about Kiran Bedi or the handful of women in the Armed Forces but that idea is reductionist.

            I will try to give you a little more important information on the subject. In Andhra, we may be proud of exporting the highest number of software engineers. But what we don’t know is that 98% of prostitutes in Andhra, 90% in Goa, 55% in Delhi, 28% in Mumbai… are from Andhra. The people who did the study said that they purposely downplayed these numbers not to hurt the feeling of Andhra people. People may be quick to assume that Andhra women are less ‘moral’. But what they don’t know the fact that 98% of these incredibly huge number of women are brought into this ‘profession’ by brute force(many times by family members). We may get complacent saying that the acid attacks and this sex-slave trade is because of ‘Urban women’ showing attitude at ‘Rural poor men’. Deep down, we all know that this is not true. Most of these women are from rural background, who don’t wear modern dresses and are not the one to rebel. Does that stop the atrocities? Show me a single case in those acid attacks, which was on an urban girl. When ‘compassionate’ men from Andhra should take the cudgels to criticize this gender oppression, we are always the first(anywhere) to criticize rebellion against these atrocities(by easy tokens like ‘Feminism’) and advice victims to get compliant with society. And I know from the profiles of 10 women released from a sex-racket in Mumbai that there were women from a Class-I officer (who went to offer Ganesh puja and got abducted) to a poor teenage girl from Nizamabad (who was sold by her neighbor couple for money). There are a lot more whose stories which will never see light. But do we have the courage to see it in full light?

            • vasudev permalink
              August 19, 2009 12:49 am

              naveen..this is horribly revealing! when i learnt that every rich tobacco farmer in andhra has a second home i never thought it was akin to this. peddapuram is one such famous place which has devadasi custom still on (had driven down that road from rajahmundry to kakinada and at the fork of pedapuram where i turned to kakinada i was accosted by richshaw pullers offering me all types of flesh). (now let me hasten to add..i did not stop to view the scenery!)

              • Naveen permalink
                August 19, 2009 1:39 am

                Vasudev, Yes, there is a stronger resistance in Andhra too to keep the ‘false luster’. And the unfortunate part is that most Andhra people don’t know these facts. What started in Peddapuram and Chilakaluripet is a menace that spread to other places and this should come as a warning to people who believe that sex can free men from sexual frustation. And I think this can never be a solution but is a problem itself. Do you know that in Andhra, women were the biggest victims in the AIDS meance too -unfortunately (in most cases) for no mistake of theirs.

                But what is the solution to this problem?- I think a very good law and order situation as in the west and a people’s movement educating everyone (not just men) about Women’s rights. Calling police in India and expecting them to get there is a silly thought (for now). So for now, the solution is -victims protesting and other people helping out- without going into the semantics of the word ‘help’.

                Vasu, Sorry for lending your shoulder again😉

              • August 19, 2009 12:00 pm

                Naveen,

                I don’t know what kind of understanding you are having about the modern fleash trade compared to the traditional devadasi caste.Seems you lack understanding somewhere.The coastal belt is having lot of agraharams and maharaja’s so devadasi caste is one of the dominant caste their and they are rich also.I really can’t explain you in detail here.Its very progressive caste & you can find lot of famous actresses and persons in that caste.

                Regarding modern fleash trade or trafficking i dont support it.But i really respect devadasi caste.You can’t have a comparison to the modern fleash trade where pimps and dalal’s work without respecting the women and involve in traficing women.We really should respect devadasi caste for their services to the mankind in our culture.You might not be having understanding of “rajarikam”.Pls stop calling it a menace and all .. We should respect all castes.

                • vasudev permalink
                  August 19, 2009 12:13 pm

                  kumar

                  i strongly disagree with you here! dunno when you last visited those parts. yes. devadasi was the temple-courtess once upon a time (another of women oppression by the earlier kings who used them in the name of the lord).

                  it is purely flesh-trafficking nowadays with pimps galore. in fact everyone round about peddapuram is a pimp selling girls from 12 yrs to women as you fancy in your pervertedness.

                  and yes..these women are EXTREMELY hansome, tall and fair and no wonder there are many andhra and hindi actresses who belong to this village. but the job of an actress is actually a reprieve for these poor beautiful women. i pity them!

                  • August 19, 2009 12:36 pm

                    Vasu,

                    Thats why i am saying we can’t compare devadasi people with present day women fleash trade.Their is no women opression.Its a caste close to brahmins and kshatriyas.Devadasis are involved in major decision makings for the well being of the society.Women from devadasis are having major role to play in the kingdom and temple activities.You can’t compare the wealth of these people with anyother.They are intelligent & beautiful.

                    Their service for the well being of the society is something can’t be valued.

                    Now a days you can find most of them got well settled in films,theatre,education,jobs..etc and some are struggling with modern age.I dont support the way modern fleash trade works where pimps exploit women in india rather i support licenced one like in west and in Ancient india.

                    • vasudev permalink
                      August 19, 2009 1:27 pm

                      unfortunately, i reiterate: peddapuram is no more that which you think it is.

  33. rags permalink
    August 15, 2009 7:40 pm

    Naveen! Lol! You rock!

  34. vasudev permalink
    August 15, 2009 10:56 pm

    the world doesn’t need a better looking glass but – india, does.

    the american airlines frisking of former president kalam did not evoke such a sharp response from the goi but the detention of srk in the us airport evoked let’s do ‘tit for tat’, response from the goi.

    what the heck is happening to this country?

    this is a country which would forget its war heroes (read such as army/navy/airforce etc) but create overnight celebrities out of mere gulli-danda (read cricket) monkeys!

  35. vasudev permalink
    August 16, 2009 10:46 am

    india seems to give a lot of impetus to the entertainment industry. fine! then we should follow thigh-land.

    i even have a suggestion. we should start some new institutes called ‘national institutes of sexual technology’ or ‘national institutes of love management’. that would bring to an end all these problems of eve-teasing as we would see a multitude of indian junta (irrespective of age, creed, caste, position, affordability etc) flocking to these institutes (and i don’t think we need reservations here) for an integrated course of theory cum heavy practical sessions.

    considering the attention to entertainment industry i am sure india can launch itself unto the world as the next place for all-found fun and earn the golden dollops too.

    whaddya say?

  36. August 16, 2009 5:18 pm

    Sexual harassment is very common n Kerala, despite the literacy rate. And I was going to leave a sarcastic remark asking what the girls were wearing, but this has already been pointed out -without sarcasm.

    I had heard from a nephew and his wife who had gone to watch a movie (in 2001), how a group of young men behaved with a young girl who had come to buy tickets at the theater, they surrounded her and molested her, my nephews’ wife was shaken and refused to go there ever again, – we read nothing about this in any news, because this is common and not considered news worthy. Kerala colleges (Kochi I think) also requested girls not to wear ‘tight tees, because ‘they make you look cool, but they make boys drool’, with so much support it is hardly surprising that the men there feel free to harass any women, ‘tight tees’ or fully covered in jackets and socks.

    And then we talk about culture.

  37. mallugirl permalink
    August 17, 2009 1:36 pm

    am a mallu girl born n brought up in kerala. some of the commentators who said here ‘perplexed’ could’ve avoided this scene shld live in kerala dressed up as a girl for 2 yrs the least. let them prove by what kind of compassionate empathetic rural/urban behavioural changes they can avoid eve teasing n molestation in kerala!! so far i’ve seen only one way to escape from mallu guys – either dont ever get out of the house or if u do use ur own car or if not get a healthy looking male family member to accompany u all times. otherwise it doesnt matter.u can be aged from 8yrs to 80yrs u can be dressed urban rural u can appear liberal traditional u can look defiant submissive – no difference at all – mallu men will stare at u like u r naked, comment on u with dirtiest innuendos n if they get a chance will grope ur privates! i’ve lived in many other cities of India n abroad – but the experiences of women in kerala are one of the worst. so much so tht i think somebody shld do a phd on mallu psychology – why a state boasting of high literacy rates n strong communist movements shld be so pathetic when it comes to treatment of women in public places?!

    • August 17, 2009 9:48 pm

      mallugirl, thanks for your comment. we plan to go to kerala one of these days for a holiday and this post and its comments (including yours) has served as a good warning. I like your idea of men dressing up as women and experiencing the molestation. Also I agree with you entirely about eve-teasing and molestation. As long as the person is a female, thats all that perverts need, looks, dress, nothing else matters. they look for opportunity. And about your last question I have one answer – the so-called Indian culture that people are so proud about.

  38. vasudev permalink
    August 17, 2009 10:45 pm

    nothing to worry nita. it is not as bad as what mallu girl has projected. basically the cities and towns are quite safe from morning till 7pm. venture out alone after 7pm and then the problems start. it is not like there are mallu guys running after every girl on the street trying to rape her. no! and avoiding crowded public transport would be a good idea. there are plenty of ricks out there. and taxies are a plenty. but no woman should alone hire a taxi. better be in male company. if one follows all that one should be quite safe. as regards men not interfering in women scenes, it does not happen in mumbai as well. and mumbai locals have experienced a spate of violence against women. does not mean women aren’t venturing out. the idea is to give a bit of a warning: the idea is not intended to dissuade.

    • August 17, 2009 10:59 pm

      vasudev, in mumbai and pune there eve teasing and molestation as well, but I assure you that women are out alone after 7 p.m. and even after 11 p.m. at times! I have myself returned alone from work in a taxi and it was after eleven! me and my friends have also walked home after midnight once, and there was no male member in our midst and we face no problem. And never have I even felt afraid as taxi and rick drivers are very good here. however its the public nowadays who is not that good and its them one has to be careful of, particularly in a crowded place where they can be anonymous. Women in mumbai and pune travel regularly by public transport too, and yes after 7 p.m. A lot of women in mumbai and pune are working girls, many of them single and supporting themselves. there is a lot of industry here, and offices are jam packed with women. if you see pune, you will be surprised to see the number of colleges within a distance of just 3-4 kms and its packed with girls! I feel very safe in pune and have the habit of wandering around all by myself!🙂
      p.s. I am just trying to understand how safe kerala is as compared to say mumbai. from the comments here it seems that a girl is not safe in a cab after dark? Thats exactly like Delhi.

  39. August 18, 2009 7:45 pm

    Mallugirl:

    My attempts here are only to find the solution for the problem.And the views expressed are in general to India nothing specific to kerala.

    If you feel there are other ways to handle & find solution you can put them in the forum.Regarding the points/precautions you made i agree with them & i always take them into account for my family anywhere in the world.

    But definetly we can’t find a solution merely talking about the balls of a guy or a girl like perplexed quoted.Rather it will turn into ugly street brawl.

    I had travelled only once to Kerala to kozhikode.It was a good experience.So, i cant say anything about local people behaviour in specific.

  40. vasudev permalink
    August 18, 2009 10:21 pm

    Coming to the topic of attire not being relevant to madden indian males (as some ladies commented here) I have an observation and a question:

    what is your take on some indian women wearing low cut top half exposing blouses?

    Is it part of any indian custom/culture or a deliberate attempt to get into men-trouble?

    A foreigner lady advised me to close my eyes and hope such distractions weren’t actually happening to me. She further commented, in her country the men actually ignored these sights and moved on (forgot to tell her that India was a tropical country and not a cold one and here one did not have to painfully break-off his piss-stream, when done outdoors)

    What do the indian ladies have to advice me on this?

    I admit, I felt a lot horny myself and quite distracted and disturbed because I got distracted.

    Now imagine what the man on the street would have felt?

    Coming to horniness let me also comment: makes no difference between the classes or the ages.

    • August 18, 2009 11:10 pm

      vasudev,

      Really? we girls have to suffer because you are a horny B!@#$%^&* and cannot control your feelings?? you are talking about women who are dressed “inappropriately” but what about all those who get molested even when they are fully clothed “appropriately”? You are just making excuses for the men’s behavior and it is not right. you (speaking in general terms) do not harm someone simply beacuse you do not have it in you to control yourself!

      “now imagine what the men on the street felt” ???????

      can you imagine what the girls feel like every day? ever given it a thought?

      • vasudev permalink
        August 19, 2009 12:22 am

        owww! you are really mad at me aren’t you eh perplexed? anyway, glad that you got that off your chest finally even though at me. but then, i had made this TRUE incident post to provoke the woman in a woman and you gave me lots of ideas.

        nita has explained things very well suiting her maturity and experience but you are yet young and given to dejections at how the society reacts to you.

        let me tell you a basic biological fact ( i can do this well ’cause i was a biology student and by bad luck took up engineering)

        i hope nita will excuse me and dr. charakan will endorse my views.

        the thing that gets a man going is ‘sight’. the thing that gets a woman going is not sight but ‘personality’ (not a handsome hunk who is a gigolo but a man who is mature, nice, funny but not demure, dependable etc.etc). haven’t you seen beautiful ladies married to idiotic looking guys but adoring their finds? therefore, there is a god given distinction between these two animals. the man’s sight gives signals to his brains and a lot of chemistry takes place within over which he has no control (this is called being ‘horny’). some men are well able to hide it or do not talk about it but i don’t care. i could have hidden the personal reaction part and acted as some false-sadhu but here i wanted a true discussion. so i made myself the truthful ‘bakra’.

        now as nita says (and as the foriegner lady told me) , i believe with time one may learn to ignore all these pancy women and slowly that may help us eventually to control the skewered birth numbers of our country. and maybe one day we might have to build new konarks and other temples of love (sarcasm intended).

        truth is, even today and even in mumbai women dressed inappropriately would get the treatment (and this is a sorry fact but then please refer biological rule 1 above)

        as regards women fully dressed getting molested, it is not evrywhere that it happens and i think i have already mentioned that kerala case is something different and i endorsed your views on that.

        here let me pick up from what nita had said: there could be a class-attack. the have nots taking it out on the haves could be one such example but the have-nots have also attacked the have-nots in which case i think we are back to rule 1.

        as regards the control part, i did control myself, didn’t i? now for me a lot is at stake and i might have not been able to instantly control my biology but then my trained mind overttok god and did the right thing as man devised for a society.

        acharya rajnish had said in one of his discourses: that men and women have been corrupted by society into the establishment of marriage which prevents one man or one woman from desiring another (post marriage). i won’t go too deep in that or you might be prompted once again.

        bottom line: we once had this management guru who used to rpovoke us. being senior officials he would damage our ego in class by calling us ‘bastards’. anyone who does not respond is termed as a stone without feeling. i remember some of the very senior officers put together in class with their very junior subordinates and addressed very primly as bastards, got together and rushed to the dias to assault him.

        well..i am glad you aren’t a stone without feelings but a plain human being and i am glad that i provoked you.

        we can continue the discussions nita.

        • vasudev permalink
          August 19, 2009 12:28 am

          that should read ‘skewed’ please.

    • August 18, 2009 11:22 pm

      vasudev, I am glad you asked this question. Feelings of desire at seeing flesh are quite normal. However men who are used to seeing flesh do not feel any particular desire if they see a half clad woman. For example tribals who expose their top halves are not routinely raped by their men. And in the west, short minis and skirts does not mean that the women are molested or raped. There is far more rape and molestation in India (please don’t go by stats as not even 1/100th of rapes are reported and not even 1/millionth of molestations are reported) even though women are covered. A man not used to seeing the flesh of a woman will feel the desire. A man who is used to seeing women fully covered like in a hijab gets excited when he sees an ankle, a woman’s flowing luxurious hair, her shoulders, her bare waist and so on. Indian men do not generally get turned on by seeing women’s backs and waists (as much as can be seen in a sari) because they are used to it. Once an American asked me how is it that the saree exposes so much but men don’t stare, but even a legs below the knees showing has men staring? Men in Maharashtra do not get turned on when see a woman in a navvari which worn in certain ways can expose the body quite a lot but I have seen men who are not used to it go a little beserk.
      Anyway, the main thing is that feeling desire is normal. The question is how a person handles it. Do all men grab a woman’s body part if it is a trifle exposed? A criminal minded person will do it. A decent person will not force himself on anyone he sees! A person may admire a diamond ring in a shop but the thought of stealing it may not even enter their mind! Why? it’s ethics and moral behavior. Still, the ring is still an inanimate object and it feels nothing if it is stolen. The owner is the one who is hurt. Many men see women as objects, not human beings, just like the diamond ring, and therefore they often rape and molest women belonging to another class and caste (yes vasudev, in rural areas this is common) as it is a way of showing the men something, a way of taking revenge on the men. In a way Kumar has brought out a pertinent point although I do not think he explained it well. There is a class can caste issue involved. Men from the poorer classes have been shown to desire women from the higher classes (statistics of rapists in the US) and the reason is this same thing. Having for themselves a woman from a higher class satisfied the need not for lust, but for violence and revenge and is an outlet for the jealousy. Rape is very often not about sex. In rural India often high class men rape women of the lower castes as way of teaching the men a lesson. Wives and daughters of men are punished (because they are seen as ownership items) for some wrong committed by the man.
      A man wanting just sex will not think in class terms and in this sense you are right. But just think the psychology of a person who acts on feelings of rage and jealousy for the upper classes (rage against the upper class men mind you!) and attacks the women. he does so because he thinks the women are nothing but objects, belongings of the upper class man. He sees a well dressed women and he wants to have her, because of his sense of inferiority he feels towards the men, not the women.
      A solution to this is not for the woman to start dressing like her poor sisters, but for the criminals to be caught and thrown in jail. Because it is only the criminal minded who do this, not the majority. If a man feels a real sexual desire for a woman of his class and rapes her, he is a criminal too and should be thrown in jail. His motives may be different, but he is equally a criminal. Sex and molestation is all about violence, it’s not about sex, and its not about how a woman dresses either. To say it is about how a woman dresses actually speaks very lowly of the male. It is telling you that a man has no control over himself and frankly I think most men would be disgusted at this idea. Control is the reason why we are human beings, and not animals. And lack of respect for the female is what makes a man feel that he can give in to his lack of control. The reason for high molestation, eve-teasing and rape in India is because women are not respected. Anything can be done with them, and they deserve it.
      Overall though I have great respect for the human male (in general) and think he has tremendous control and at times I think more so than that of women. His behavior is not dependent on how a woman dresses. That would be demeaning for him. It is the criminal minded men who want to provide excuses for their behavior who talk of dress. It is men without control who want the women to cover themselves up because they themselves have no morals or ethics. It is the men who think that women are objects who are the molesters and rapists. It is the men are violent and aggressive who are the molesters.

      • August 18, 2009 11:47 pm

        Well, Dress related to cultural aspect.When we go to Middle-east my wife and daughters wear hijab whereever necessary as per islamic standards.When we go to a rural indian village we wear traditional clothes.Similarly in a western country we wear western clothes.Its the way we show respect to the local culture.Dressing as per the occasion is necessary.

        For example, I am observing some indian women wearing jeans for a hindu marriage or a reception or for temple.It makes odd women out.similarly for week days most of the indian men wear formals and keep jeans or casuals for friday but some indian women wear jeans/casuals on weekdays for office which make no sense….some of the Indian women are confused what to wear when…. might be globalization effect or to pick indian cuture or western.

        yeah sure you must be right, some people are confused about what to wear when. It’s none of our business. – Nita

        • August 19, 2009 11:42 am

          “It’s none of our business. – Nita”
          I don’t agree with your view.Ofcourse its the busines of every family and individual in the society.Dressing as per occasion is important and will give lot more meaning to the way we live.

          When myself and my family attend a wedding in hyderabad we go in the traditional attire.My wife and kids wear traditional kanchi saree & pattu langa (lehanga) or a half saree for wedding,reception,in temples,perentam or for nomu/vrat..If some women wear jeans/western dress out of ignorance or due to western influence definetly its not appreciable and same applies to men also.These odd women will definetly
          attract the unwanted attention and end-up with molestation.

          When we go to finnish sauna whole family together me my wife & kids will be going naked.Even in public sauna we go naked in finland as it is the culture their.similarly my wife goes naked for a tan in the beach due to her skin.Since some indian women are in wroung notion thinking wearing western attire is being progressive and dynamic they are simply imitating west due to ignorace.i came across numerous indian women in the europe being not allowed into upmarket restaurants or places due to the jeans they are wearing.And they
          complain about racial discrimination.

          My daughter wear tracks in the morning before starting to tennis court.In the tennis court she will be in sports mini skirt.If she insits of wearing a mini skirt right from home it is my duty to tell her what to wear when.If we observe Priyanka Gandhi when she is going to rural places she wears a khadi saree.And after winning she is in Black jeans and a top.People may think it is for votes but its her sense which makes her.

          Its definetly our responsibility to make the girls learn what they have to wear.If you think its not our business then definetly they have to undergo lot of pain in their life.This is the reason in tirupati & Guruvayoor temples traditional attire for devotees had been made compulsory.

          • August 19, 2009 11:55 am

            Kumar, whenever I reply to you I find that you take another meaning than what I intend and that is why I hesitate to reply to your comments. I certainly did not mean that family and friends should not influence. That is the most ridiculous thing to imagine! Also all private organisations have a right to decide on their dress code, whether it is a temple or a club.
            I meant its none of our business to tell a strange woman how to behave when she is not in our private premises. That is her business! If there is one thing I abhor and detest it is the moral police. Everyone has a different view on things, and they should dress the way they feel and we don’t want the moral police to impose their guidelines! Now I hope you don’t take another meaning of this too. It is possible to close a conversation, where two people have given their viewpoints and there is nothing new to say.

            • vasudev permalink
              August 19, 2009 12:03 pm

              nita..
              i do have something new to say on this and it si that if a person is caught streaking on the roads every police is on the alert to apprehend him. why so? isn’t that moral policing? or is it because it is considered as an ‘inappropriate’ attire of self-ware display in public places? similarly, no one has a right to dress-up in any which way he-she wants to any place other than designated places (as kumar says). if you come semi-nude to a temple as to a beach/swimming pool or a sauna do you think that would be considered as acceptable by the public in the name of freedom of view?

              • August 19, 2009 12:25 pm

                vasudev, ofcourse not! all temples, and religious places have their rules. If there is a nudist temple they will have a rule that only nude people can enter!🙂 But streaking is not normal, everyday behavior is it. And as human beings have not worn their birthsuits for thousands of years now so it makes sense that wearing one’s birthsuit in public is inappropriate behavior. That is an extreme example that you have given, but maybe one day a hundred years from now going around naked might become normal behavior, who knows! Also I have never seen anyone going in swimwear to a temple for the simple reason that people are not mad. However I have seen fully clothed people jump into swimming pools with their dirty clothes and I look down on this behavior. You have to wear a swimsuit at a pool, not go fully clothed. Or if you are shy, don’t swim.
                You mentioned semi-nude but the definition of this varies from culture to culture. However rules of the religion have to be followed even though God himself will not object if you pray to Him nude. These are rules made by humans and we tend to follow them. Once in the country, at a deserted abandoned tiny temple, where there was not a soul, I entered a temple in a pair of jeans and shirt and frankly I thought nothing wrong in it. There was no one to offend, there was no priest there, no devotees and I know that God welcomed me. Thankfully God has given us this body and He doesn’t think it is sinful.

              • Vinod permalink
                August 19, 2009 1:16 pm

                If I may intellectualize a tad here on the social dynamics – there is a tension between the individual nature of our selves and our social nature. The former dictates that we be free to dress as we please. The latter dictates that we have sufficient social acceptance to feel secure. An individual may stretch the latter and (sadly) pay an individual price or s/he may expand the acceptance range of the society. Societies will remain stagnant if individuals do not constantly assert themselves against opposing social norms. The sense of belongingness is important to feel secure. Belongingness can only come about if there is some degree of similarity in appearances – for good or bad, we judge based on instincts and not so much by cerebrating. There is a degree of fluidity there which individuals can experiment with. Societies that are already secure in who they are will be more accepting of diversities. Rural populations may (I’m speculating) perceive a threat from urban populations (given the economic disparities) and may not easily accept an urbanly dressed woman in their midst. That may possibly, and quite unfortunately, trigger adverse reactions from them.

        • vasudev permalink
          August 19, 2009 11:52 am

          quite right kumar! the other day while visiting an ‘ayyappa temple’ in suburban mumbai i witnessed two girls who came to the temple wearing tight jeans and sleeveless t-shirts with nothing under! also pertinent to mention here is that they were accompanied by an elderly fool with a french beard who was similarly attired: only in a t-shirt and an underwear (read shorts)! to me it showed ‘new-money’ without any great background to speak of. but was that also a challenge to lord ayyappa? i wonder?

      • vasudev permalink
        August 19, 2009 12:41 am

        nita..very interesting observations. i have lots to say but i think this should not become a dialogue. so where are our other friends who can contribute very openly and honestly?

      • Vinod permalink
        August 19, 2009 6:53 am

        Nita, very well said. I have nothing substantive to add to what you’ve said. All I have is my personal experience that simply corroborates your points.

        When I was striving to be “pious” – resisting all temptation type- in the period 17-24yr, I used to be very strict about guarding my gaze. But when my gaze slipped and fell on a woman’s body, it sent tremors through me. I was still under the influence of the segregation culture I had come from. Till I was 22, I could barely talk to a woman without feeling nervous. The attraction factor played high on my mind.

        As I hit 25 and beyond, I got to know women online and had some of the most spiritually healing conversations with them. That really showed me that women are no different from men. In fact, such conversations actually revealed s a lot about who I am. I realized that there is so much more beauty in the thoughts of a woman than in her body. I began to strive to know women for what they have in their minds. I knew that the attractiveness of the body was just the start. The real attraction was of the mind. Many women have commended me today of my sensitivity (the credit to which actually goes to the women who have influenced me). Additionally, my idea of what sex was – a very male-moulded idea – also changed. It was no longer purely a dominantly physical act.

        Having known what the real deal in a woman is, I don’t have a problem having a free conversation with a woman who shows her cleavage. My eyes don’t slip (my austere practices of the early 20s have helped). I can keep them on the face. It doesn’t stop there. Although I had a low opinion of such women, on getting to know them better I realized that many of these women know atleast as much as I do about human nature. Since they engaged in the manipulation game every moment they knew what got people ticking and what didn’t. And they were NOT horny, slutty girls, but thinking individuals who just happened to know how to manipulate male desires.

        Lastly, the homo sapien species would be quite boring if not for the efforts that women put in to look good – the polished toenails, the way the strands of hair shines, streak with colours and fall on the shoulders or shake as the head moves, the way the eyebrows are shaped, the laughter that jingles, the lips that quiver, , the variety and artful dresses worn, the ear-rings and necklaces that make their faces glow and my favourite- the eyeliner – these are an irresistible killer. I could just sit and admire the beauty in women for hours, only if it wasn’t considered with suspicion.

        • August 19, 2009 7:57 am

          vinod, to appreciate a woman’s beauty but not see her as a sex object is something that is indeed to be admired. It shows the evolution of man. I think the human form itself is beautiful and neither sex should be ashamed of showing one’s body and in fact I think trying to look good (which men also do by the way) is a good trait in a human being. It shows self love, without which one cannot love another. I cannot bear slovenly people. I personally do not like to wear make-up but I like to ensure that I am neatly dressed. If I could I would love to dress with freedom like the women in western countries do, wear loose low cut tops and shorts, for the sheer comfort of it in the hot humid climate. But I am afraid I am a coward and I admire women who have the guts to defy society. Society changes only when a few forward thinking people do bold things and I hope the young women of today take our society forward. They should wear what they feel comfortable in and not care what others think. Also let me assure you vinod that not all women wear slinky skimpy clothes to manipulate or attract men. They do it because they feel comfortable in it. If a woman wants to manipulate or attract a man she can do it easily without wearing revealing clothes. Unfortunately men who have grown up in a conservative society always think that a woman in skimpy clothes is trying to attract men. This is completely false. A woman’s way of attracting a man involves a huge amount of body language, but as you said, these women are not slutty. Simply women who are proud of their body and their looks and want admiration. Nothing wrong in it at all. Men do it too. During the height of the mating game, this behavior is at the maximum and it is perfectly natural. No species in the world except humans take it as an invitation to molest and rape. Our unnatural and repressive society has twisted and suppressed human desires (remember our history) and made desire seem sinful. That is how perverts are born, because they cannot handle their normal desires.

          • Vinod permalink
            August 19, 2009 10:58 am

            Nita, I must say that the idea that a woman would like to show her cleavage simply because it is convenient is not easy to hold for a guy like me. But it IS POSSIBLE with practice. It’s not difficult actually when I just tell myself that I’m most comfortable in tropical climate when I’m shirt-less. The sticky feeling when I wear a shirt irritates me to no end. It’s not too hard to go from this simple thought to a woman wanting to let some air flow over her body.

            And another thing I’ve discovered from my conversations with women is that it is men who are more interested in women’s modesty than women themselves are. And that is very true. I believe that if men can evolve into a less animalistic beings it would simply let women breathe easier.

            • vasudev permalink
              August 19, 2009 11:44 am

              vinod

              thanks for your frank submissions, which are so very difficult for so many men.

              in my opinion it should be quite natural for men to be attracted towards ‘mystic’ women. and for that to sustain, women must keep at least certain main parts of their anatomy hidden. my fears are that men would otherwise soon lose interest in women (and take to experimenting with lesser animals than homo-sapiens) if women make their anatomy a free show.

              but then, it is all ok to make men feel revolted of women if women are leading themselves to an ‘attilla’ world.

          • Vinod permalink
            August 19, 2009 11:50 am

            A woman’s way of attracting a man involves a huge amount of body language

            Nita, some day you must wear your ‘love guru’ hat and elaborate on that.

            • vasudev permalink
              August 19, 2009 11:54 am

              yep! i second that!

      • vasudev permalink
        August 19, 2009 1:37 pm

        nita

        regarding the attire of tribals: nude tribals in andamans etc or semi-nude tribals in tamil nadu/kerala/nagaland forests. it is their attire. the tribal sees that a fully-clothed. there is no ‘unlearning’ here. it is not so with cities where ‘undressed’ women flaunted fashions create a confusion in the onlookers mind (both male and female). this is ‘unlearning’ and the brain takes time to adjust.

        sarees were normally worn above the navel. women then made it below the navel. men watched. back reveling blouses were never in fashion once upon a time, same as sleeveless blouses. women brought both into vogue. men watched the former and men in buses got revolted by the later when women with unshaven armpits during initial days lifted a hand to hold the rod. slowly women understood the grossness of it and started shaving armpits and applying sprays to keep off the stink of sweat. now wome n are onto something new: the front low cut!

        an anthropologist once commented: women are essentially the seed receivers and they are most uncomfortable when clothed. women prefer nudity.

        • August 19, 2009 2:11 pm

          vasudev, I think we are cross purposes here. Vinod understood what i am saying. The truth is that men assume that women are dressing for them, but this is a fallacy. A woman should be free to wear what she wants, that is her business. To say a woman prefers nudity is ridiculous. If she does, men do too. I have seen a lot of half nude men in Tamil Nadu, on the streets. It seems that they like to go about like that but I see nothing wrong in it. They are dressing for the weather, not to attract women for gods sake!!
          I see nothing wrong with unshaven armpits. Hair is a natural phenomena and if women can bear the stink of sweaty men in a bus, the men can bear her stink too. A woman does not have to dress to please men. When they wear low cut outfits, I do not see it as provocative. It looks beautiful thats all. A woman is a beautiful creature and like Vinod said it is the animalistic gaze of men which makes her beauty into something gross. Also I think women should dress in a way to move society forward, not backward. They should be bold and wear what they feel comfortable in and I applaud women who try and change social mores which try and suppress them. Covering themselves from head to foot is suppression of women. Men are not blamed for trying to be sluttish if they sport shorts and nor should women be considered so. Men should understand that the woman is not dressing for them.
          And if a woman wants to look sexy, she should go ahead and look it, because after all there are certain men she may want to attract and nothing wrong in it as long as it is reciprocal.
          I think slowly Indian men will start to understand that a woman has not worn a low cut blouse for their particular pleasure, but for her own, or for someone else. when I wear my jewellery at a wedding I don’t do it to tempt thieves, I do it so I can show off to the world my beautiful necklace and i want to look beautiful in it.
          If there are men who cannot control their depraved thoughts then it is not the woman’s problem. Men in western countries can handle it. They can admire a woman’s body form without sick thoughts. I have myself walked on the streets of New York. The average man there does not immediately strip you naked. They appreciate your looks and your form. In India even though I mostly wear tops that completely cover my front, at times right up to the throat, men first look at the chest. That shows their animal nature and has nothing to do with my dress.

          • vasudev permalink
            August 19, 2009 2:29 pm

            nita..since we are at cross-purposes and at an impasse i dutifully withdraw myself from this discussion.

  41. August 18, 2009 11:50 pm

    i have had classmates who were guys born and raised kerala and studied till their masters ( now they are all ph.d’s and profs and all and do not want to reside in kerala) who enjoyed eve teasing and explained to me what parts of the body they would target. when the wind blows what parts of the saree will fly and what parts will reveal and eve tease about them – age immaterial.

    i was not surprised but cool and collected when i heard the tales of eve teasing.
    the mallu guys from kerala also find it easily appalling the interaction of girls and boys in bombay – this was something new to them. they even would find it fidgety when girls and boys sit on the same desk.

    Kerala is a dark society with flashes of light in between the books.
    the guys could be qualified as doctors or engineers or could be a “galli ka awara” – the pscyhe can be clubbed together – their circuit in the brains just goes hay wire.

    There is hardly or no healthy interaction between boys and girls at school or college. The stiffness among the opposite sexes is as hard as ginger. the social conditioning stems at home, propogated by teachers and other parallel religious institutions.

    Even parents are not comfortable with cousins of the opposite sexes playing together after 12 or 13. But sexual experimentation is common among closed doors with relatives of the opposite sex – that is how the interaction can be.

    (i heard these tales 14 years ago and i am still surprised nothing has changed it …don’t they howl if they see a girl in genes ? Even a mallu priest has their share of their fun and frolic

  42. August 19, 2009 12:45 am

    http://pareltank.blogspot.com/2008/05/are-mallus-malesperverts.html

    Are Mallu Males Pervert – is the post. Read the comments too and confessions of anonymous males in the comment.

    • vasudev permalink
      August 19, 2009 10:50 am

      Is SRK perverted? He says he would love to frisk Angelina.

      • August 19, 2009 11:57 am

        I think that is a very cheap remark he made and I wonder what the US police did to him!🙂 However I doubt whether he will actually frisk her if given the chance!

        • vasudev permalink
          August 19, 2009 12:07 pm

          at least that guy is confident that there would be many men and women going ga-ga over him just because it is SRK and not VASUDEV who made that cheap remark. here i think most women would swoon fantasising rather than calling him xxxxxx!

        • August 19, 2009 12:21 pm

          Yes, I agree with Nita.Its very cheap remark from SRK.Would have got frstrated i feel.As 9/11 involves people of certain religion the INS people are taking extra precautions for the safety of USA.Everyone has to adhere to the norms before entering to USA.Nothing wroung in that.

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